Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

I have about 1800 hours and I would say that 80% of
my flying is from winch launching.

My club operates primarily from the winch launch. When
our club was a bit busier we completed anything up
to 120 winch launches a day.

Winch launching, like anything in flying, is completely
safe if people are trained properly. I am not going
to teach people how to winch launch over the internet
but I will say that the number one rule is never to
get yourself into a situation from which you can not
recover with the energy (whether kinetic or potential)
you have. Put simply - never climb steeply from the
ground, always maintain an shallow 'initial' climb
until you reach a safe height and speed.

Winch launching is more Labour intensive than aerotowing
as you need a winch-driver, a cable retrieve driver,
a competent and experienced person making the decisions
and supervising and a wingrunner. However, for a training
environment it is certainly much, much cheaper and
fosters a 'club' atmosphere as everyone relies on eachother
to make things happen.

I do not know any statistics of winching vs. aerotowing
and frankly I think that statistics are, in general,
irrelevant in gliding (just look at the US contest
finish stats, I counted 4 in the last 17 years but
people think this is an area out of control in the
US). But what I do know is that I have never been in
a situation where I could not land safely on the airfield
in the event of a launch failure and I have never just
cleared the boundary hedge by a matter of inches (my
gratitude to the tug pilot for not dumping me has been
expressed many times in the form of beer) in a Duo
full of water on a winch launch either.

Having said that,I also feel that aerotows are also
safe when given that the equipment is regularly inspected
(whether it be the tug or rope) and that the landing
options are fully researched/explained prior to take
off. I have never not considered an aerotow because
I felt it was unsafe.

I guess my point is that both types are utterly safe
if people are trained and have a plan if things go
wrong, again like most situations in flying.

"John Mason" wrote in message
...
A good place for statistics is:

http://www.esgc.co.uk/BGAdata.htm

Search and study the reports. There is much written between the lines.
If
you look at the number of accidents where the launch was originally a
winch
launch you will find that a lot of accidents occur soon after the launch
is
completed and are attributed to other factors but which would really not
have happened if they had aerotowed. (Rigging errors not found in the
speed
of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because
of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with
the
angle of attack in the launch properly and so on). It is not possible to
give clear cut statistics without a significant degree of human
interpretation and you will really need to make your own mind up. I am
certain winching is a lot more dangerous. There are more things that can
go
wrong and if they can go wrong, they will given time.


John, the only way to see the data in the way you suggest is with a
prejudiced eye. If a pilot can't fly a glider under stress or rig it
properly, he's just an accident looking for a place to happen. It doesn't
matter how the glider is launched.

Bill Daniels

A winch driver won't get killed if the winch is equipped properly. And a
cable breaking near the winch under full power is something very, very
dangerous, so sitting on a winch without shielding is asking to be killed.

The min team for winch launches is the pilot, the winch driver and the wing
runner (the winch driver can retrieve the cables on his own if the winch has
properly working brakes on the drums). If pilot and winch driver are
suffiencently experienced, a chair may well replace the wingrunner (although
stating that in public may not be politically correct :-)

During winch launch, any accident is related to pilot errors so you can
basically keep the accident rate fairly low.

On aerotows you may have situations were a cable break *will* induce an
accident, and the pilot may just be able to influence the damage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mike Borgelt" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:41:06 +0000 (UTC), "tango4"
wrote:


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

If you want gliding to be popular aerotow involves less running around
on the ground per flight hour.


A cable retrieve winch such as the one in use at the Long Mynd in the UK
makes a winch operation even slicker than aerotowing!

Ian



So how many winch operations involve two people?
I've had tows where the only people present were the tow pilot and the
glider pilot. Least I got with auto tow was three. Both were no radio
ops.

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

And lastly we did have a winch driver killed during a winch launch a
few years ago. The wire (basically high tensile single strand fencing
wire) shattered as it was being reeled in after the glider released
and one of the pieces of shrapnel hit the winch driver in the upper
torso and he died shortly thereafter before anyone got to the winch.
The lexan shield had been bought but not installed.

My favourite launch method involves a motor in the glider.

Mike Borgelt

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:16:58 +0000 (UTC), "John Mason"
wrote:

....snippage...

(Rigging errors not found in the speed
of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because
of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with the
angle of attack in the launch properly and so on).


....snippage...

None of these points are unique to winching.

- I've seen many more comments on r.a.s about failed aero tows
due to rigging errors than I've heard about for winching. To me this
says more about the safety culture (or lack of it) at different
sites than anything to do with the launch method.
- incorrect airspeed and stall/spin after release is just as possible
at the end of an aero tow if you overcook the climbing turn.
- AOA mis-management will be *much* more serious during an aero tow
on a CG hook than during a winch launch provided the appropriate
weak link is used. Think tug upset.

I launch both ways though I'll admit to many more winch than aero-tow
starts. I see very little difference in pilot stress levels or
workload between the launch methods in good conditions, but the
overall stress from an aero tow is larger, simply because you're on
tow for 5 minutes or more compared with the 30 seconds to get to the
top of the cable. If I'm flying something as sluggish in roll as a
G.103A in turbulent, windy conditions then winching has a much lower
work load than aero-tow.

This is my opinion entirely: I'm not speaking for anybody else or
trying to put words in their mouth.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
A winch driver won't get killed if the winch is equipped properly. And a
cable breaking near the winch under full power is something very, very
dangerous, so sitting on a winch without shielding is asking to be killed.

The min team for winch launches is the pilot, the winch driver and the
wing
runner (the winch driver can retrieve the cables on his own if the winch
has
properly working brakes on the drums). If pilot and winch driver are
suffiencently experienced, a chair may well replace the wingrunner
(although
stating that in public may not be politically correct :-)

During winch launch, any accident is related to pilot errors so you can
basically keep the accident rate fairly low.

On aerotows you may have situations were a cable break *will* induce an
accident, and the pilot may just be able to influence the damage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


I was recently shown (very discretely) a wing runner replacement by a pilot
who uses ground launch.

I was comprised of a long tripod made of PVC pipe, topped with an inverted,
felt lined, ski-type runner, on which the wing tip slid. It would hold the
wings level for the first 2 meters of the takeoff roll. It could be
dismantled and stored in the glider trailer.

The successful use of this device depended on excellent radio communication
between the glider pilot and the tow car/winch driver plus a very good wheel
brake on the glider so that the pilot could prevent being pulled off the
tripod as the slack was slowly pulled out. I was told that it worked very
well.

Way back in the 1960's a friend and I would trailer our gliders out to
remote dry lakes in the Mojave Desert. We would take turns auto-towing the
other into the air. The obvious problem is that the pilot driving the tow
car was left on the ground with his glider if the other found lift.

On one occasion, I caught a thermal and soared away leaving my friend on the
ground. I felt bad about leaving him on the ground but thought - but hey, I
have lift. Shortly afterward, my friend joined my thermal in his glider.
He had talked a curious passer by into driving the tow car.

We just started the launch with the wingtip on the ground. Ground launch
crews can be very small.

Bill Daniels

Hei,

John Mason wrote:

(Rigging errors not found in the speed of the launch,

Whit??

Do forgive my clearly insufficient knowledge of the English
language, but what exactly does "rigging errors not found in the speed
of the launch" mean? And how would those have been found and corrected
if the launch subsequent to rigging had been by areotow rather than by
winch?

I mean: The fact that an aerotow takes longer time to complete does not
give you any more time _prior_ to launch, does it?

Christian 8-)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:59:17 -0000, "Silent Flyer" ]
wrote:


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

***********
You have obviously never been to the Long Mynd - I have heard it described
rather unkindly) as " a barely levelled granite hilltop".

Actually I have in 1988.
The surface looked pretty good compared to most Oz airfields. There
are one or two which I've jokingly said you would fail an outlanding
check if you picked the airfield.

I'm sure there are good statistics available for the safety of winch
vs aerotow but nobody has come up with them.

Winching is cheaper for training but has anyone noticed that gliding
is shrinking worldwide? Perhaps the old way of doing business is no
longer successful?

I think we need to realise that gliding is a sport for *pilots*.

First turn a newcomer into a pilot.

There is a wonderful array of small light aircraft and /or
motorgliders available nowadays at very reasonable prices. In Oz a
Pipistrel Sinus costs about the same as a new ASK21 and for the
purposes the K21 would be mostly used for (primary training) the Sinus
might be not quite as good a sailplane but will more than adequately
do the job and lets you teach cross country navigation, outlanding
field selection etc as well as being a not bad two seat bugsmasher.
Combine training in one of these with motivational rides with cross
country pilots in high performance two seat gliders(minimum - Janus,
Duo etc preferably with self launch or turbo to prevent outlandings)
and I think you might have a 21st Century soaring movement that might
have a fighting chance of actually retaining the people that come to
it.

Mike Borgelt

This sounds like the place I learned to ground launch. Well, actually I
guess I got the basics down during a visit to New Zealand. In any event my
experience at the place was more positive as was the success of all of the
launches than your experience. "Lights on!" and all. I liked the rustic
feel of things, felt clear on and comfortable with the safety measures and
procedures in use, and my license no longer says aero tow only.

David Grah
Bishop, California

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Gary,
I suspect you are considering winch launching for your club and I would
think
the biggest problem would be in getting club members, "Up to Speed" on
winch
operations.

In way of illustrating my point, allow me to tell a little story about a
local
soaring operation that is no longer in business. This outfit advertised,
get
your "Aero-Tow Only" restriction, removed from your glider licence. Come
to XXX
Soaring and we will check you out in about an hour, or so. This outfit had
a
2-33 with only a nose tow hook (mistake no. 1) They didn't use radios
(mistake
no. 2) The flight examiner weighed a good 300 lb. + your average student
at 200
lb. = 500 lb's in the 2-33 (mistake no. 3)

I was going to take the course, but had to wait for the student in front
of me
to get his check-out. The signal for "Start the launch" was, level the
wings
and flash the lights in the car located near the right wing tip. It went
something like this:

1. Level the wings & flash the lights------------Glider rolled about 10
feet
and stopped. winch operator stalled the winch.

2. Level the wings & flash the lights---------- Cable went, but glider
didn't
move. In the last attempt, wheel had rolled over cable and caused a
reverse
release.

3.Level the wings & flash the lights---------------Glider went about 100
feet
and stopped. Cable had "Kinked" in previous 2 attempts and then broke at a
kink.

-------------30 minute delay while Nico-Press & sleves are found and cable
is
spliced. With 3 attempts and no success, student is having second thoughts
and
opens canopy and starts to climb out. Instructor tells him, everything
will be
fine, this time, Get back in here.

4. Level the wings & flash the lights------------ Glider takes off, to the
wild
applause of all those assembled. Glider only gets 400 feet due to nose tow
hook
location. Glider makes a 90 right and a 180 left, lands and rolls right up
to
the starting point.

Attempts 5, 6 & 7 come off without a hitch and the Flight Examiner is
called
out (300 lbs)

Level the wings & flash the lights-------------- Glider takes off, but
only
gets 300 feet, makes a modified 90/180 and plunks it down hard, way down
the
runway.

I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.
JJ Sinclair

As many times as it takes for the student to react properly. In our club,
it happens often, especially if the student fails to call 200ft.
Fred

How many airtow instructors pull the release on their student at 200 ft
over the outbound fence? Just once? Several times?

"E. A. Grens" wrote in message
...
JJ -

I, as a power pilot, learned to fly sailplanes on the winch, overseas. I
now only fly aerotow, and am not signed off for ground launch. One thing
I
have not seen mentioned is the qualification of winch operators. Tow
plane
pilots ( I'm not one) have to meet certain standards and be signed off. I
became a winch operator by volunteering out of club spirit (stupidty?). I
was informally instructed by a winch operator who desparately wanted to
escape the exile of the winch. Then I was left to do the job, getting my
flights at the end of the day. They brought me food and drink
(nonalcholic), but no one "qualified" on the winch would come near for
hours. I'm sure I never endangered any aircraft or pilot, but I'm also
sure
that some achieved less than optimal release altitude. There was no
tensionmeter, and throttle control was based on visual evaluation of
aircraft attitude and cable sag.

Many years later I had the chance to observe the operator of a modern
six-reel winch at Terlet. He was an artist at work, and he had the best
equipment.

I think winch launches are safe, as long as you have a cg hook. But, in
any
comparison to aerotow, the increased number of launches necessary to
achieve
sustained flight must be taken into account.

Ed Grens

If it's soarable, one launch should do most days. Most seasons I winch
launched regularly I can count on one hand the number second snaps taken per
season to soar away. Of course, _big wings_ do help, but that's another
thread;^) This season, I only took two aerotows to 2000agl. My other AT
releases were 1200 to 1700agl, that is, at or below winch height and near
enough to the airfield to presume had we been winching, getting away was
pretty likely. For a number of reasons we didn't winch much this season,
but when we did, we soared. This included thermals on New Year's Day and
wave on Feb 1 and thermals each subsequent winch day this season. Looks
like snow for November 1st though. Last Saturday would have been perfect as
lift was 10kts to 12K in a stiff NW breeze. The kind of day we get 2500+agl
on the wire.

Frank Whiteley