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Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn



 
 
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  #141  
Old October 7th 05, 10:10 PM
Jose
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I don't get in that position. When I'm about nine miles from DEPRE, as I'm
about to intercept the GS at 5,000', I ask the controller if I'm cleared for
the approach. He responds, "AWI123 cleared ILS runway 36 approach", and I
start down on the GS. When my comm radios mysteriously fail four miles down
the road while all my other avionics continue operating flawlessly I just
continue on a normal ILS approach and land.


Well, it might not happen that way. When you ask if you're cleared for
the approach, the controller responds "negative, maintain five thousand,
I'll have clearance for you shortly." Then he gets busy. Controllers
get busy sometimes, don't they?

Two minutes later you are at five thousand and five miles from DEPRE,
and get the approach clearance.

Jose
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Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #142  
Old October 7th 05, 10:16 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

So what would you do in the situation I described? You're at 4000 feet
on V21 going to FUL. You have not been cleared for the approach or told
to descend when you lose comm. If you go straight in you'll get to FUL
right at your filed ETA.


I answered that the first time you asked. I'd go straight in on the 020
radial.


  #143  
Old October 7th 05, 10:27 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Jose" wrote in message
.. .

Well, it might not happen that way. When you ask if you're cleared for
the approach, the controller responds "negative, maintain five thousand,
I'll have clearance for you shortly."


Then I'd have to tell him we either start down now or we'll need vectors for
another shot at it. Why can't he clear me now?



Then he gets busy. Controllers get busy sometimes, don't they?


At GRB? Rarely.



Two minutes later you are at five thousand and five miles from DEPRE, and
get the approach clearance.


No I'm not. I'm either being vectored for another shot at the approach or
I've been cleared for it and have started down on the GS.


  #144  
Old October 7th 05, 10:34 PM
rps
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You'll have to remind the controller if it looks like he or she is so
busy so that you're going to get a slam dunk approach. I think you can
descend in a hold, south of DEPRE, left turns (see earlier posts in
this thread from me) until you intercept the GS. However, I wouldn't
try this if the frequency is busy and you can't tell the controller
what you're up to. If the frequency is so busy, I'd descend no lower
than MSA, follow the LOC and then declare missed above the airport.

  #145  
Old October 7th 05, 10:44 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...

You'll have to remind the controller if it looks like he or she is so
busy so that you're going to get a slam dunk approach. I think you can
descend in a hold, south of DEPRE, left turns (see earlier posts in
this thread from me) until you intercept the GS.


With EGF456 three minutes behind me? No freakin' way!


  #146  
Old October 7th 05, 10:47 PM
Jose
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Well, it might not happen that way. When you ask if you're cleared for
the approach, the controller responds "negative, maintain five thousand,
I'll have clearance for you shortly."


Then I'd have to tell him we either start down now or we'll need vectors for
another shot at it. Why can't he clear me now?


Ok, I'll buy that. (I know... generous of me.

I don't know why he can't clear you now. Perhaps there's a departure, a
traffic conflict, a handoff issue, a staffing shortage, or the
controller's pencil rolled behind the console. Whatever it is, it's not
something I'd be questioning him about on the radio.

And despite the relative calmness at GRB, there are places where one
can't get a word in edgewise. I fly in the Northeast, and it is not at
all uncommon, especially at a handoff.

No I'm not [at five thousand and five miles from DEPRE, when you
get the approach clearance]. I'm either being vectored for another shot at
the approach or I've been cleared for it and have started down on the GS.


Suppose, for whatever reason, the controller does not respond when you
tell him "we either start down now or we'll need vectors for another
shot at it". For example, the airplane behind you has a
misunderstanding and goes the wrong way, and needs to be coddled back
into place, and a third aircraft comes into the picture. It's well and
good that you can change the scenario on Usenet, but you can't change it
in the air. It is whatever it is.

In any case, I would conclude (synthesize) from what you have said so
far, that in this case, when you are given the approach clearance at
five thousand feet, five miles from DEPRE, you would refuse the
clearance and request vectors (or perhaps a hold at DEPRE to lose altitude).

But, upon lost com (which could be a problem with ground transmitters,
as well as a hardware issue with the volume control or PTT, I expect
you'd want to get down most expiditiously. (you've been cleared for the
approach)

What I would do is probably enter a descending hold at DEPRE and proceed
inbound from there. One turn ought to get me down to approach altitude.
I suspect you'd do something similar.

Am I right?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #147  
Old October 7th 05, 11:26 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

I don't know why he can't clear you now. Perhaps there's a departure,


There may very well be, but they don't point the departures at the arrivals.



a traffic conflict,


That would mean he let somebody cross the FAC just outside the LOM. Why did
he do that?



a handoff issue,


There's nobody to handoff to, only one approach controller between the
Center and the tower.



a staffing shortage,


How can that be? Again, there's only one approach controller between the
Center and the tower and he's already working me.



or the controller's pencil rolled behind the console.


Why does he need a pencil to speak the clearance?



Whatever it is, it's not something I'd be questioning him about on the
radio.


I'm not questioning him, I'm questioning you. It's your scenario.



And despite the relative calmness at GRB, there are places where one can't
get a word in edgewise. I fly in the Northeast, and it is not at all
uncommon, especially at a handoff.


Yeah, but we're not in the northeast, we're at GRB.



Suppose, for whatever reason, the controller does not respond when you
tell him "we either start down now or we'll need vectors for another shot
at it". For example, the airplane behind you has a misunderstanding and
goes the wrong way, and needs to be coddled back into place, and a third
aircraft comes into the picture. It's well and good that you can change
the scenario on Usenet, but you can't change it in the air. It is
whatever it is.


You don't work a stream of traffic from the rear forward, you have to take
care of the guys in front first. If you screw something up in front it's
transmitted and magnified throughout the string.



In any case, I would conclude (synthesize) from what you have said so far,
that in this case, when you are given the approach clearance at five
thousand feet, five miles from DEPRE, you would refuse the clearance and
request vectors (or perhaps a hold at DEPRE to lose altitude).

But, upon lost com (which could be a problem with ground transmitters, as
well as a hardware issue with the volume control or PTT, I expect you'd
want to get down most expiditiously. (you've been cleared for the
approach)

What I would do is probably enter a descending hold at DEPRE and proceed
inbound from there. One turn ought to get me down to approach altitude. I
suspect you'd do something similar.

Am I right?


No. There's traffic following me. I'm not turning around.


  #148  
Old October 7th 05, 11:49 PM
Jose
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With EGF456 three minutes behind me? No freakin' way!

EGF456 got the clearance three minutes after you, but you don't know
where he is.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #149  
Old October 7th 05, 11:58 PM
Jose
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I'm not questioning him, I'm questioning you. It's your scenario.

Ok. He's a new controller and he's nervous. He dropped his pencil
behind the console after wondering if he accidentally may have let
somebody cross the FAC outside the LOM, and he won't issue the clearance
until he knows it's ok. As he reaches down to pick up the pencil he hit
his head just as his boss came in. He really wants to be a lot less
polite to you, but he limits himself to telling you to wait a moment
(while he gets his **** together).

It's my scenario, you can't say "it wouldn't happen" as a response.

In any case, it doesn't matter -why- it happens this way this time - as
the pilot you deal with it or get sent to the back of the line (which
may be the smartest thing to do at this point).

There's traffic following me. I'm not turning around.


There's always traffic following you. In this case EGF456 is also
cleared for the approach, but he may well be at 2500 feet coming from
the west, or 9000 feet coming from the North. You don't know. He may
well not be "following" you.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #150  
Old October 8th 05, 12:00 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

EGF456 got the clearance three minutes after you, but you don't know where
he is.


Sure I do. He's three minutes behind me. He's been three minutes behind me
since we left ORD. We filed the same route and the same altitude. Every
step of the way I heard ATC issue him the same instruction I was issued,
just three minutes later. I heard him report out of the same altitudes I
did, just three minutes later.


 




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