Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

"Jose" wrote in message
m...

Good enough. But suppose your radios are all working fine, but you just
can't get a word in edgewise. I won't speculate as to how that might be
possible at this particular (middle of nowhere) facility, I'll just note
that it happens where I fly.

You go straight in, as you said you would.

Would =that= be a technical violation of the FARs, since you don't have
91.3 to rely upon?


In that case I don't make a straight-in approach, I don't make an approach
at all. I continue to my clearance limit and enter a standard hold at
whatever altitude I was last cleared to maintain.

"Jose" wrote in message
news

That EGF456 was following you since the beginning of your flight was not
part of the scenario, at least not as presented. I took it as another
aircraft that could be coming from anywhere, which is now also cleared for
the same approach you are on and presumably will be following you.


Even if I hadn't heard any of the previous exchanges between EGF456 and ATC,
the exchange on initial contact with GRB approach was enough to tell me he's
three minutes behind me. He's my direct competition, we fly the same route
just a few minutes apart every day. The fact that he contacted GRB three
minutes after I did and reported out of an altitude above mine tells me he's
behind me.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

I've already made my case. You may reread it and the references until
you
understand it, or choose to disagree.


I missed the message in which you did that, didn't make it through my
provider. Could you copy and paste it in reply to this message?

Your case didn't show up on Google Groups either. Could you repost it? I'd
really like to read it.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:00:02 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


So you've effectively ignored the ATC requirement to start an approach at
an IAF. That is a requirement for ATC unless giving radar vectors IAW
7110.65 5-9-1. You may say that DEPRE is an IAF (which it is) but it is
not being used as one in this scenario.


Cite that requirement.

7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial
Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an
Initial Approach Fix.

Why doesn't DEPRE count as an IAF in this scenario?

What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF?

How is the initial segment defined?

How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach?

---------------------------------------


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an
Initial
Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an
Initial Approach Fix.


That requirement is not violated. AWI123 intercepts the localizer fifteen
miles south of DEPRE. DEPRE is an IAF.



What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF?


AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL.



How is the initial segment defined?


The segment between the intial approach fix and the intermediate fix or the
point where the aircraft is established on the intermediate course or final
approach course.



How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach?


Lateral guidance is provided by the localizer, if I've passed DEPRE I've
passed the FAF.

AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL.

Wasn't there an accident recently caused by a misunderstanding like what
is suggested here? If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but
above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach,
when can you descend? I recall (perhaps imperfectly) that some airliner
descended inappropriately and ran into terrain, while still above the
altitude for the IAF. A clearance for the approach is not (AFAIK) a
clearance to -descend- to the approach altitude from an otherwise
assigned higher one.

If I'm missing something here, what is it?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for
the approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141
MSL.


Wasn't there an accident recently caused by a misunderstanding like what
is suggested here?


What misunderstanding do you believe is suggested here?



If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but
above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach,
when can you descend?


Immediately. If the aircraft is not yet established on a segment of a
published route or instrument approach procedure ATC must assign an altitude
to maintain until it is. Sometimes in the situation I described here
aircraft report on the localizer on initial contact with GRB approach, when
they are 30 miles or so from the field. They can be cleared for the
approach at that time, "cross SENNA at or above 3000, cleared ILS runway
three six approach."



I recall (perhaps imperfectly) that some airliner
descended inappropriately and ran into terrain, while still above the
altitude for the IAF. A clearance for the approach is not (AFAIK) a
clearance to -descend- to the approach altitude from an otherwise assigned
higher one.

If I'm missing something here, what is it?


Doesn't sound like a recent accident to me, sounds like TWA514, but that was
over thirty years ago.

Doesn't sound like a recent accident to me, sounds like TWA514, but that was
over thirty years ago.

To some of us that's recent.

If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but
above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach,
when can you descend?

Immediately. If the aircraft is not yet established on a segment of a
published route or instrument approach procedure ATC must assign an altitude
to maintain until it is. Sometimes in the situation I described here
aircraft report on the localizer on initial contact with GRB approach, when
they are 30 miles or so from the field. They can be cleared for the
approach at that time, "cross SENNA at or above 3000, cleared ILS runway
three six approach."


IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving
the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing
altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in
this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:



IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving
the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing
altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in
this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes?

No. That's why the controller is required to state the altitude. Once
cleared for the approach the pilot may descend to the initial approach
altitude.

Newps wrote:


Jose wrote:



IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving
the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing
altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established,
in this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes?


No. That's why the controller is required to state the altitude. Once
cleared for the approach the pilot may descend to the initial approach
altitude.

I didn't see the initial question here, but I think you are wrong. the
controllers are required to say it because in may cases (as it appears
here) pilots make mistakes and think they can descend when in fact they
are not on any segment. You cannot descend until established on a
segment.