Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

An airliner crashed several years ago when the crew mistakenly
descended to the initial approach altitude when cleared for the
approach several miles out. The CVR recorded the conversation between
the two pilots discussing whether or not that meant they could go down
to the IAF altitude (they had been cleared direct to the IAF not via a
feeder fix). The captain won the discussion and the aircraft hit a
ridgeline before the IAF. Unless established on a published segment of
the approach, the aircraft is not automatically cleared to descend.
Feeder fixes depicted on the approach plate are considered published
segments of the approach and when approach clearance is received, the
aircraft may descend to the MEA published for that feeder fix without
specific clearance.

* 150flivver :
An airliner crashed several years ago when the crew mistakenly
descended to the initial approach altitude when cleared for the
approach several miles out. The CVR recorded the conversation between
the two pilots discussing whether or not that meant they could go down
to the IAF altitude (they had been cleared direct to the IAF not via a
feeder fix). The captain won the discussion and the aircraft hit a
ridgeline before the IAF.

Did they sink thru MSA?

Can you remember what airport and approach that was? Would like to look
at the approach plate...

Unless established on a published segment of
the approach, the aircraft is not automatically cleared to descend.

So their approach clearance would have meant to fly to the IAF at level,
then "somehow" descend there, and then follow the approach? Or was ATC's
behaviour just wrong and they should have asked for clarification?


Best regards,
Daniel (not a real pilot, so please bear with me if I'm talking/asking
nonsense)

"Jose" wrote in message
...

IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving the
approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing altitude
assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in this case
until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes?


§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.

(i) Operations on unpublished routes and use of radar in instrument approach
procedures. When radar is approved at certain locations for ATC purposes, it
may be used not only for surveillance and precision radar approaches, as
applicable, but also may be used in conjunction with instrument approach
procedures predicated on other types of radio navigational aids. Radar
vectors may be authorized to provide course guidance through the segments of
an approach to the final course or fix. When operating on an unpublished
route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance
is received, shall, in addition to complying with §91.177, maintain the last
altitude assigned to that pilot until the aircraft is established on a
segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure unless a
different altitude is assigned by ATC. After the aircraft is so established,
published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or
approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Upon
reaching the final approach course or fix, the pilot may either complete the
instrument approach in accordance with a procedure approved for the facility
or continue a surveillance or precision radar approach to a landing.

* Steven P. McNicoll :
When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored,
the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition
to complying with §91.177, maintain the last altitude assigned to that
pilot until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published
route or instrument approach procedure unless a different altitude is
assigned by ATC.

Let's say I've been vectored on heading 090 at 4000ft, 5NM from LLZ
rwy 18. This track is not part of a published IAF-to-FAF track. Published
GS intercept altitude is 3000ft. ATC instructs "turn right heading 150,
cleared ILS 18". My interpretation of your quote would be that I'm _not_
allowed to start descending to 3000ft while I'm turning to 150 but would
have to stay on 4000ft until LLZ capture, and then descend (either with
the glide, or to 3000ft in order to wait there for GS capture) - or
declare unable if the GS is already below me at LLZ capture. Is that
correct?


Best regards,
Daniel (not a real pilot, just trying to learn)

"Daniel Roesen" wrote in message
...

Did they sink thru MSA?


Elevation at the crash site was about 1,670 feet, MSA in that quadrant was
3300.



Can you remember what airport and approach that was? Would like to look
at the approach plate...


VOR/DME RWY 12 at Dulles International, you can see it at
alt.binaries.pictures.aviation, the subject is "Dulles VOR/DME RWY 12".



So their approach clearance would have meant to fly to the IAF at level,
then "somehow" descend there, and then follow the approach?


Not to the IAF, until on a published segment of the approach. They were
already on the Armel 300 radial, they would have been on a published segment
of the approach when they reached ROUND HILL, 11.6 miles from the IAF.


Or was ATC's behaviour just wrong and they should have asked for
clarification?


There was no ATC error, and asking for clarification certainly wouldn't have
hurt them. The CVR indicated uncertainty of the proper altitude, the
captain said the approach plate indicated the minimum altitude until ROUND
HILL was 3400, but decided that clearance for the approach was clearance to
the initial approach altitude.

* Steven P. McNicoll :
Can you remember what airport and approach that was? Would like to look
at the approach plate...

VOR/DME RWY 12 at Dulles International, you can see it at
alt.binaries.pictures.aviation, the subject is "Dulles VOR/DME RWY 12".

Thank you, got it.

So their approach clearance would have meant to fly to the IAF at level,
then "somehow" descend there, and then follow the approach?

Not to the IAF, until on a published segment of the approach.

Timothy Witt wrote: "they had been cleared direct to the IAF", e.g.
"turn X heading Y direct ROUND HILL, cleared VOR/DME 12".

They were already on the Armel 300 radial, they would have been on a
published segment of the approach when they reached ROUND HILL, 11.6
miles from the IAF.

If I'm not totally mistaken, ROUND HILL is 11.6 DME from the FAF (which
is in turn 6 DME from AML), not the IAF. I guess ROUND HILL is the
actual IAF?!

Or was ATC's behaviour just wrong and they should have asked for
clarification?

There was no ATC error, and asking for clarification certainly wouldn't
have hurt them. The CVR indicated uncertainty of the proper altitude,
the captain said the approach plate indicated the minimum altitude until
ROUND HILL was 3400, but decided that clearance for the approach was
clearance to the initial approach altitude.

Hm. My reading of the old approach plate would be to stay at or above
3300 (which MSA radius was used back then?) until ROUND HILL, then
descend to 1800, and at 6 DME AML (FAF) start descending to MDA.

Where did this captain get the idea to descend below the MEA of 1800ft
before the FAF? You said "but decided that clearance for the approach
was clearance to the initial approach altitude" - which would be 1800ft.
Did they overshoot this descend (you mentioned 1670ft), or did he
actually thought he could descend to MDA?


Best regards,
Daniel

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:34:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an
Initial
Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an
Initial Approach Fix.


That requirement is not violated. AWI123 intercepts the localizer fifteen
miles south of DEPRE. DEPRE is an IAF.



What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF?


AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL.



How is the initial segment defined?


The segment between the intial approach fix and the intermediate fix or the
point where the aircraft is established on the intermediate course or final
approach course.



How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach?


Lateral guidance is provided by the localizer, if I've passed DEPRE I've
passed the FAF.


Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:34:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an
Initial
Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an
Initial Approach Fix.


That requirement is not violated. AWI123 intercepts the localizer fifteen
miles south of DEPRE. DEPRE is an IAF.



What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF?


AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL.



How is the initial segment defined?


The segment between the intial approach fix and the intermediate fix or the
point where the aircraft is established on the intermediate course or final
approach course.



How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach?


Lateral guidance is provided by the localizer, if I've passed DEPRE I've
passed the FAF.


One other question which I keep forgetting to ask:

Does the TRACON have appropriate radar coverage and setup to use Radar
Vectors to Final in this area?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Just so I understand exactly what you are saying, is it your position
that,
when using DEPRE as the IAF for the purpose of starting this SIAP, if one
is inbound, the legal minimum altitude at DEPRE is 2141'?


There is no Minimum Descent Altitude on an ILS approach, there is instead a
Decision Height. AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE, on
the localizer, when cleared for the approach. The aircraft leaves 3000
about 2.7 miles south of DEPRE, where it intercepts the glideslope. It
follows the glideslope down, crossing DEPRE at 2141 MSL, to the decision
height of 882 MSL. From that point it will either complete the approach
visually or execute the missed approach procedure.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

One other question which I keep forgetting to ask:

Does the TRACON have appropriate radar coverage and setup to use Radar
Vectors to Final in this area?


Yes.