Short Wings Gliders

So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots.


Todd Smith
3S

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote:

Probably because in most US clubs, that $800 a year can only support
the airport, towplanes, a couple of two seat trainers, a couple of low
performance single seaters and maybe a ASK-21 or G-103.

I know.
We have ASK-21, DG-505, SF-34, Ka-8b, 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, Dimona
motorglider, DR-300 tow plane.


To allow everybody to fly a LS-4 on the weekends would require maybe 1
LS-4 to 4 or 5 club members, if half of them showed up on the same day
and all got to fly for 2-3 hours.

Typical flying times in the club's gliders are shorter on a crowded
day since there are about 3 to 4 pilots per glider per day. Average
time per flight for ASK-21 basic training is about 15 minutes.


So buying a $40,000 glider for 5 people would require a loan payment
of $6000/year plus insurance/maint of $1000/year. Ignoring other
expenses that still adds up to $1400/year/person.


I assumed 10% interest for 10 years.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

It works. The key is winch launching.

Income:
85 members, 370 Euro per year: 31.450 Euro

Costs:
Winch launch: 2.40 Euro
Typical number of winch launches: 1.700
Total costs of winch launches: 4080 Euro
Insurance for all gliders per year and other expenses: : 15.000 Euro.

Profit per year: about 12.500 Euro.

The tow plane just covers its costs.
A little additional profit is generated by the club house, too (less
than 2.000 Euro typically).






Bye
Andreas

Andreas,

It is a mind-set in US clubs. First, hardly any clubs use winches and
they must spend enormous amounts of money to own, operate, and insure tow
planes. Second, there are few places where a winch could be used that are
near a population area big enough to draw members to support a club; we see
a turnover of about 15% of the membership every year. Third, we are busy,
busy, busy in this country; we work longer hours and have more time
constraints than Europeans (I think this has been proved), and this means
that we want to show up, rig, fly, and leave without staying around all
day to help others and to be a true club where people hang out and
socialize with families. Most clubs don't have female pilots and wives
and girlfriends grow tired of coming to a place where there is nothing for
them to do or no one to socialize with. Fourth, all of this means we want
our own equipment so that we can treat it as we wish without consulting
others about it; this pride of ownership means that privately owned
gliders are beautifully kept, for the most part, and club machines are
"junk" in the words of a short-term (4 years) resident from Finland.

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas

At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad
wrote:

Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced
activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can
afford their own sailplane?

Hi Brad,

I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties
to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's
necessary to own a glider.

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots
fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these
days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and
state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members.
There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior.


Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose
homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that.




Bye
Andreas

Andreas,
the problems in the US and Canada are two fold.
Glider pilots per capita and as a result pilot density.
Also an important differance is the individualistic approach in the US.

There are a number of clubs that operate on the European model and are
successful but there are not enough of them due to the points mentioned
above.

Here in Ontario Canada, with about 12M people, only two Clubs approach
the European model. In Canada with 33M people we only have 1500 Glider
pilots.

I give you a personal example of the problem. When I started gliding in
my mid forties I was established and I owned by then a house in a small
town. The Club I joint was a 1hr drive away . The club had 35 members and
20 were mostly active. We had a Scout tow plane, a 2-33,a Blanik, a twin
astir and a
single astir. No club house and we did not own the field.
Due to a serious of unfortunate events the club went belly up.
I now became a roving pilot. The closest clubs were 3 and 4 hours way. In
the end I did not join any club I became a member at large of the National
club and joint the contest circuit. It was not ideal but still gratifying
and enjoyable.
Lucky for me I was able to pursue the hobby that way.
Now That I will reduce my contest flying, I wish I had a club nearby.
Selling the house and buying an other one near a club is out of the
question. Well, it looks like I may to buy a used self launcher which is
cheaper then moving.
Regards
Udo

Andreas Maurer wrote:

Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it
possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly
price that hardly exceeds $800.

$800 ist *very* optimistic. It may be true for your club, but it
certainly isn't typical, not even in Europe.

I flew around 100 hours on club gliders last year, typically on LS8 or
DG1000, fully equiped with LX5000. (Ok, on some days when many pilots
showed up I had to take an LS4, which is our low-end glider...) All my
flights were cross country and usually I had a glider for my own for the
whole day (or a double seater with a second pilot).

This cost me around $4500 (beer not included). Which is still much less
than the annual cost I would have to pay for my own glider. And we
launch exclusively by aerotow.

On Jan 29, 11:25*am, toad wrote:

On your last point. *If you can figure out how to make ANY type of
sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might
start growing like crazy. *But there seems no way to build a glider
that cheap.

Todd,

Brad and I have that one absolutely wired. There is a way, and the way
is clear. All it takes is a modest amount of hands-on assembly doing
stuff that you can learn how to do in a few evenings.

The puzzling human comedy there is how few people stay interested when
you tell them they need to learn a few new skills. And we're not even
talking about skills that are truly new, they are all things that my
grandmother did. It's, like, ohes noes, new skillez, you be stealin'
my bukkit! /lols

Thanks, Bob K.

At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.

So how does the math work out at your club ?

Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any
assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring
is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy from
anybody.

Jim Beckman

At 19:23 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:

In my club:
Unlimited number of flights and hours, typically the fleet of 7
gliders does around 2.100 flights per year with about 1.700 hrs in
average.
In average 85-90 active pilots.

So that sounds like around 12 active pilots per glider, with unlimited
hours. How do you manage contention for the gliders on the weekends?

Jim Beckman

On Jan 30, 4:05*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jan 29, 11:25*am, toad wrote:

On your last point. *If you can figure out how to make ANY type of
sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might
start growing like crazy. *But there seems no way to build a glider
that cheap.

Todd,

Brad and I have that one absolutely wired. There is a way, and the way
is clear. All it takes is a modest amount of hands-on assembly doing
stuff that you can learn how to do in a few evenings.

The puzzling human comedy there is how few people stay interested when
you tell them they need to learn a few new skills. And we're not even
talking about skills that are truly new, they are all things that my
grandmother did. It's, like, ohes noes, new skillez, you be stealin'
my bukkit! /lols

Thanks, Bob K.

Bob,

I've been following the HP-24 pages for a while. I can't see creating
a HP-24 in a "modest" amount of time, but send me the brochure ! I
would be very excited.

Todd

At 19:32 30 January 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Lower cost and more
interesting sports like hang gliding and paragliding that have been
particularly strong in the USA.

Another point is competition from power flying, which is a much more
attractive proposition in the US. I believe I'm correct in thinking that
flying power in most of Europe is much more expensive (and more highly
restricted) than in the US.

Jim Beckman