Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East

On 14 Sep 2003 14:58:02 -0700, (baffet) wrote:

[snip]

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen).

Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.


What about IAI Phalcon 707, "The world's most advanced AEWC&C system"
according to Federation of American Scientists?

Well, the FAS is a nice resource, but has many flaws, and AFAIK the
Israelis have not built any Phalcons for their own use, and are merely
trying to flog them around the world.

Peter Kemp

Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote in message . ..
On 14 Sep 2003 14:58:02 -0700, (baffet) wrote:

[snip]

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen).

Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.


What about IAI Phalcon 707, "The world's most advanced AEWC&C system"
according to Federation of American Scientists?

Well, the FAS is a nice resource, but has many flaws, and AFAIK the
Israelis have not built any Phalcons for their own use, and are merely
trying to flog them around the world.


As far as we know indeed. The Israelis tend to hide their military
equipment and technologies, from the simplest gun to spy satellites to
nuclear weapons. The arabs, on the other hand, show off the best shiny
equipment their oil can buy.

It's unlikely Israel will design and develop such an expensive system
and not use it.

Peter Kemp

On 14 Sep 2003 14:58:02 -0700, baffet wrote:

Both Israel the Arab nations use US early warning systems, including
E-2s, and in the case of SA, E-3s (which the Israelis *don't* have.

What about IAI Phalcon 707, "The world's most advanced AEWC&C system"
according to Federation of American Scientists?

I would point out that the FAS website often sounds like it is just
regurgitating manufacturers literature.

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Quant wrote:

(Jack White) wrote



I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.



The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.



So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have
and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.



The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.



The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.




The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.
The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.
F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford
them even with free US taxpayer money.
I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future.





Israel is already part of the JSF project.


Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.


The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

The reality is, these airplanes are to be used on the local population
when they get fractious. In any combat with a highly qualified air
force like the IAF, even the fanciest airplane is little more than
expensive scrap metal if your pilots aren't trained.
--
Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free
health care and a high degree of literacy.\
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
John Derbyshire

http://www.aracnet.com/~reynard/blogbog.htm}

Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes.

Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a
month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be
shorter than that.

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

--


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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:14:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes.

Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a
month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be
shorter than that.

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

We're not talking some of the less able Arab nations, but Egypt, who
has no problems keeping it's F-16s at a fairly high availability, and
the Saudis, who also manage to keep their E-3s and F-15s in the air.

Peter Kemp

In article ,
Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

We're not talking some of the less able Arab nations, but Egypt, who
has no problems keeping it's F-16s at a fairly high availability, and
the Saudis, who also manage to keep their E-3s and F-15s in the air.

Not according to, well, everything I've ever read, heard and seen. The
current mission-capable rate on the Saudi F-15s is supposed to be less
than 50%, and that's just birds they can get into the air, not what the
US calls "combat capable."

--


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Slam on brakes accordingly.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:23:55 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

We're not talking some of the less able Arab nations, but Egypt, who
has no problems keeping it's F-16s at a fairly high availability, and
the Saudis, who also manage to keep their E-3s and F-15s in the air.

Not according to, well, everything I've ever read, heard and seen. The
current mission-capable rate on the Saudi F-15s is supposed to be less
than 50%, and that's just birds they can get into the air, not what the
US calls "combat capable."

Cite?

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:14:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:
Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes.

Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a
month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be
shorter than that.

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

If Israel buys a counter to the Typhoon -- say Typhoons themselves,
or F-35, or F/A-22, then they too will have the same teething
troubles.

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In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:14:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

If Israel buys a counter to the Typhoon -- say Typhoons themselves,
or F-35, or F/A-22, then they too will have the same teething
troubles.

But the Israelis actually have a decent cadre of flightline troops who
can fix and/or modify the planes when that happens. The Saudis, most
definitely, do *not*.

And a month down the road, or six months down the road, right when the
Israelis are getting their into decent shape, the Saudis (or the
Egyptians, or whoever) will be trying to figure out what systems to
ignore in order to call them "mission capable."

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.