GTR-5 ?? Liberty recordings

ojunk (Mike Weeks) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve Richter)
Date: 7/13/2003 19:04 Pacific Daylight Time

Cristol says that by the time the helicopters arrive the MTBs have
identified the ship as American.

It's suggested you really crack Cristol's book, or at least d/l the time line
at:

http://libertyincident.com/timeline.htm

and check the entry for 1520 Sinai.

Mike,

I dont think you have your facts right on this matter. At least the
facts as cristol reports them in his book. On page 57 of the TLI,
middle of the page:

Cristol tells us that at 1451 ( 10-15 minutes after the start of the
naval incidenting of the Liberty) the MTB reports that the ship may be
russian "based on writing on back of vessel". An order is made to
dispatch a tug boat from Ashdod. Then the next para starts:

"MTB 203 then recovered one of the damaged life rafts .... The raft
had "US Navy painted on it. At this point the crew of MTB 203
concluded the ship was American. CDR McGonagle testified that immed
after the ship was struck by the torpedo the torpedo boats milled
around astern of the ship at a range of 500 to 800 yards. One of the
boats signaled by flashing light in English 'Do you require
assistance?' The Liberty log reports indicate that the first offer of
help from the MTBs occurred at 1503. ...."

All this takes place before the IAF helicopters arrive on the scene at
around 1508.

Interesting that the MTBs are able to signal in english, yet they
mistake the english writing on the back of the ship for Russian.

This is all very perplexing because once the helicopters arrive on the
scene, the MTB crew, presumably Moshe Oren, dispute the statement by
815 (helicopter) that the ship is not dangerous and they tell 815 that
the hull markings of "GTR-5" means nothing.

I am interested in the truth in this matter. Can any of the Americans
who have been trusted by Israel with more information than the rest of
the American public explain these actions and statements?

-Steve

From: (Steve Richter)
Date: 7/14/2003 21:52 Pacific Daylight Time

(Mike Weeks) wrote in message

From: (Steve Richter)
Date: 7/13/2003 19:04 Pacific Daylight Time

Cristol says that by the time the helicopters arrive the MTBs have
identified the ship as American.

It's suggested you really crack Cristol's book, or at least d/l the time
line
at:

http://libertyincident.com/timeline.htm

and check the entry for 1520 Sinai.

Mike,

I dont think you have your facts right on this matter. At least the
facts as cristol reports them in his book. On page 57 of the TLI,
middle of the page:

Cristol tells us that at 1451 ( 10-15 minutes after the start of the
naval incidenting of the Liberty) the MTB reports that the ship may be
russian "based on writing on back of vessel". An order is made to
dispatch a tug boat from Ashdod. Then the next para starts:

"MTB 203 then recovered one of the damaged life rafts .... The raft
had "US Navy painted on it. At this point the crew of MTB 203
concluded the ship was American. CDR McGonagle testified that immed
after the ship was struck by the torpedo the torpedo boats milled
around astern of the ship at a range of 500 to 800 yards. One of the
boats signaled by flashing light in English 'Do you require
assistance?' The Liberty log reports indicate that the first offer of
help from the MTBs occurred at 1503. ...."

That's one MTB which picks up one of the life rafts. Based on the detailed
info available it's possible Cristol jumped ahead a bit on when 203 scooped up
the damaged life raft. Again see the time line: 1540, even though that would
seem a bit late, but as recorded by NSA late in the 1508-1512 time period: "815
to Pagoda: From behind it [Liberty] several uninflated boats were seen." The
1520 entry is the time recorded for when Haifa is informed by the MTBs (only
Oren's boat which is doing the reporting.)

But for the sake of discussion, suppose that 203 believes the ship to be
American in the minutes prior to the helos arriving ...

All this takes place before the IAF helicopters arrive on the scene at
around 1508.

Interesting that the MTBs are able to signal in english, yet they
mistake the english writing on the back of the ship for Russian.

Morse Code is not "English." The transcript should have reflected that;
there's no "English" signaling, as there's no "Russian" signaling via light or
flag (unless it's encoded for internal use.) This is signaling via
international understood morse code. Why the word "English" is even used
escapes me.

This is all very perplexing because once the helicopters arrive on the
scene, the MTB crew, presumably Moshe Oren, dispute the statement by
815 (helicopter) that the ship is not dangerous and they tell 815 that
the hull markings of "GTR-5" means nothing.

No MTB has a Jane's for heavens sake. Why do you think "GTR-5" would mean
something to a couple of Israeli sailors which would not have a clue about all
the possible hull numbers of all the possible foreign navies sailing in the
Med? Besides, if you've read the sworn testimony, Liberty's Chief Thompson
indicates that what was being signaled in the aftermath of the attack wasn't
"GTR- 5."

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak

From: (Steve Richter)
Date: 7/15/2003 17:57 Pacific Daylight Time

(Mike Weeks) wrote in message
...
...
That's one MTB which picks up one of the life rafts. Based on the detailed
info available it's possible Cristol jumped ahead a bit on when 203 scooped
up
the damaged life raft. Again see the time line: 1540, even though that
would
seem a bit late, but as recorded by NSA late in the 1508-1512 time period:
"815
to Pagoda: From behind it [Liberty] several uninflated boats were seen."
The
1520 entry is the time recorded for when Haifa is informed by the MTBs
(only
Oren's boat which is doing the reporting.)

are the life rafts tethered to the Liberty? If not, and I am sure
they are not, wouldnt they have drifted away from the ship by 1540?

Well gee, forget to note that the helos report the boats are uninflated? If
the crew is indeed throwing damaged liferafts overboard, one would expect them
to be uninflated, no? Second, given the order to "prepare to abandon ship",
good liferafts thrown overboard and allowed to drift away aren't going to do
the sailors any good now are they.

And note the 1542 entry in the timeline. "MTB Division 914 records
that "vessel is sailing at slow speed to the northwest"" Is the life
raft that MTB 203 says it picked up sailing at a slow speed also?

Ah where are you pulling this ? form?? Your arse? If the ship's moving, and
the uninflated liferafts have no power source, don't you think the liferafts
are going to be to the rear of the slowing moving vessel?

You're truly starting to make no sense w/ these "questions."

But for the sake of discussion, suppose that 203 believes the ship to be
American in the minutes prior to the helos arriving ...

All this takes place before the IAF helicopters arrive on the scene at
around 1508.

Interesting that the MTBs are able to signal in english, yet they
mistake the english writing on the back of the ship for Russian.

Morse Code is not "English." The transcript should have reflected that;
there's no "English" signaling, as there's no "Russian" signaling via light
or
flag (unless it's encoded for internal use.) This is signaling via
international understood morse code. Why the word "English" is even used
escapes me.

This needs to be explained more. you can morse code transmit a message
either as a text message or an internationally agreed upon encoding of
a set of messages ( 1 = help, 2 = so long, 3 = get away from my ship
you murdering ******* ).

Ah, think for a minute will you. Who establishes this code you just made up?
How is it communicated to another party, especially a foreign national?

You know, international morse code was established for a reason -- think about
it will you.

Cristol says it was english text. Where do
get your information from that is to the contrary?

Check again what Cristol is quoting Steve. Please attempt to pay attention.
As to international morse code, try any number of sources for international
standards of signaling via flag and/or light.

You really think that the standards for encountering vessels of other countries
is to use only a code which only the sending vessel understands?

But, one of the bottom lines is, the MTBs signal to the ship asking if
it needs assistance before the arrival of the IAF helicopters. Why
send this message if they are not sure of its country of origin or if
it is a danger to them?

Because one doesn't have to know the nationality of the vessel to which a
signal is being sent; especially if it's one of "do you need help?" Do you
really think that it has to be established first the nationality before aid can
be offered? Why do you think an international standard was established for
signaling?

Also missed is that since the MTBs had halted the attack, it was at least
realized the ship wasn't Egyptian, as had been assumed.

Wouldnt they first send the A-A message?

Why?

Why would the navy put itself in a position where it has to ask the
IAF for information? Why allow the IAF helicopters to approach a ship
that might open fire on it?

That's what apparently the exchange was about; using either the NSA
translation, or apparently someone else's.

Please attempt to think though what's taking place at this juncture.

This is all very perplexing because once the helicopters arrive on the
scene, the MTB crew, presumably Moshe Oren, dispute the statement by
815 (helicopter) that the ship is not dangerous and they tell 815 that
the hull markings of "GTR-5" means nothing.

No MTB has a Jane's for heavens sake.

Wait a minute! I dont have my Cristol book with me. Are you saying
that the MTBs only had silhouettes of Eygptian ships? That they
selected the Eygptian ship that best matched the one they were looking
at?

Read up on the incident will you.

Why do you think "GTR-5" would mean
something to a couple of Israeli sailors which would not have a clue about
all
the possible hull numbers of all the possible foreign navies sailing in the
Med?

thats ridiculous Mike. Your saying the Moshe Oren does not know that a
hull marking on a warship means something?

Stop being so bloody ridiculous yourself Steve. It's really showing.

Oren is stating that GTR5 has no meaning to him/them. It wouldn't. He
wouldn't know that, except for this vessel clearly not being the El Quseir,
what GTR5 meant. Just like if the USS Great Sitkin (AE-17) showed up, marked
E17, Oren would only know it's a cargo-type vessel -- but not that she was an
ammunition ship, also a C2 hull conversion BTW.

Again, what makes you think a group of MTB sailors are going to be up to speed
on all the different types of vessels of all the navies which might sail in the
Med? They were fighting the Egyptians & Syrians as far as vessels went.

Oren tells the helicopters that the ship may still be dangerous even
though he has already signaled the ship asking if it needed
assistance.

So? Can Oren control what the Liberty might do, or not, given what had taken
place? Heck, if you believe some of these great tall tales from some of the
more vocal survivors, they KNEW the helos were full of commandos and that they
were coming to storm the ship and kill all aboard ...

Then he obfuscates again by telling the helicopter that a
hull marking means nothing.

The MTB crew are lying. Until the members of Israel stop defending
the lies, this controversy will not be resolved.

Well geez Steve, with this bit of enlightenment, why not climb the highest
mountain and shout to the heavens? However it suggested perhaps you should
slow down a bit and simply cool off and collect yourself before any more damage
is done.

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak

From: (Steve Richter)
Date: 7/17/2003 12:08 Pacific Daylight Time

Trust that honest and fair people will reach the conclusions the
facts lead them to.

That's truly rich coming from someone who had just stated: "The MTB crew are
lying."

I'll remaind you; you're chasing an issue which was decided on 21 July 1967,
for better or worse, it was decided.

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak