Night over water

I left MYR (Myrtle Beach, SC) last night about 8PM, departing on rwy 18. A
VFR aircraft departed just before me, and he got departure instructions of
turn north on course as soon as able (over the land). I was continued 180
after takeoff on an IFR flight plan. I was about 1/2mile out over the water
before I got turned back inland and oncourse. I never seem to be able to
shake that feeling of 'wow' when I fly out over the ocean at night. Its so
very dark.

I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away from
this, and steer them toward land earlier?

My wife says she feels like she is going to fall off the earth out there.

Stuart

"Stuart King" wrote in message
...
| I left MYR (Myrtle Beach, SC) last night about 8PM, departing on rwy 18.
A
| VFR aircraft departed just before me, and he got departure instructions
of
| turn north on course as soon as able (over the land). I was continued 180
| after takeoff on an IFR flight plan. I was about 1/2mile out over the
water
| before I got turned back inland and oncourse. I never seem to be able to
| shake that feeling of 'wow' when I fly out over the ocean at night. Its
so
| very dark.
|
| I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away from
| this, and steer them toward land earlier?
|
| My wife says she feels like she is going to fall off the earth out there.

As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to the
horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR pilot
isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.

Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect for
all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly over
the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud separation.

I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.

SK
CP IA -EI EI O


As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to the
horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
pilot
isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.

And the Canadian (CARS) perspective:

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled
airspace unless
(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
(b) flight visibility is not less than three miles;
(c) the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet
vertically and one mile horizontally; and
(d) where the aircraft is operated within a control zone,
(i) when reported, ground visibility is not less than three miles, and
(ii) except when taking off or landing, the distance of the aircraft from
the surface is not less than 500 feet.

602.114 (a) in the CARS implies that visual reference to the surface is
required for VFR pilots. Flying over the ocean (or low altitude over the
Great Lakes for that matter), at night, is very likely to put that
requirement in serious doubt. IMHO, a controller wouldn't deliberately give
a VFR pilot a vector that the pilot would have to refuse on the basis of
flying into IMC, according the definition in the regs. A pilot on an IFR
flight plan isn't subject to that. I don't think it's a hazard issue for VFR
pilots as much as a regulation issue.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
| Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
| all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
| the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.
|
| I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
| over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.
|
| SK
| CP IA -EI EI O
|
|
| As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to
the
| horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
| pilot
| isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.
|
|

"Stuart King" wrote in message om...
Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect for
all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly over
the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud separation.

I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night VFR
over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.

I hope not. I don't want controllers screwing around with my vectors
because some guys aren't comfortable on the gauges.

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is not VFR? By your
logic, all night flying is not VFR, since CAR 602.114(a) states that the
aircraft must be operated with visual reference to the surface, which is
difficult over land as well when its dark. Is this why Canada has a night
rating?

"Randy at Home" wrote in
message
. cable.rogers.com...
And the Canadian (CARS) perspective:

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within
controlled
airspace unless
(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
(b) flight visibility is not less than three miles;
(c) the distance of the aircraft from cloud is not less than 500 feet
vertically and one mile horizontally; and
(d) where the aircraft is operated within a control zone,
(i) when reported, ground visibility is not less than three miles, and
(ii) except when taking off or landing, the distance of the aircraft from
the surface is not less than 500 feet.

602.114 (a) in the CARS implies that visual reference to the surface is
required for VFR pilots. Flying over the ocean (or low altitude over the
Great Lakes for that matter), at night, is very likely to put that
requirement in serious doubt. IMHO, a controller wouldn't deliberately
give
a VFR pilot a vector that the pilot would have to refuse on the basis of
flying into IMC, according the definition in the regs. A pilot on an IFR
flight plan isn't subject to that. I don't think it's a hazard issue for
VFR
pilots as much as a regulation issue.

"Stuart King" wrote in message
m...
| Yes, I am qualified. I am, however, going to maintain a healthy respect
for
| all things that have killed others. A VFR pilot is also allowed to fly
over
| the water at night in the US, as long as he maintains vis/cloud
separation.
|
| I guess what I was wondering is if controllers are aware of the night
VFR
| over water hazard and if so, do they make special allowances for this.
|
| SK
| CP IA -EI EI O
|
|
| As an IFR pilot, you're qualified to fly without visual references to
the
| horizon (e.g., over the ocean, facing away from land, at night). A VFR
| pilot
| isn't (e.g., JFK Jr.). Sounds like common sense to me.
|
|

"Brad Z" wrote in
news:aDEVb.208748$nt4.986888@attbi_s51:

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is
not VFR?

I do this for a living, and I'm here to tell you that flying
over water at night is mostly *NOT* VMC. If you're not capable
of, and completely prepared for, flying on instruments, you had
best not be there. People die that way. Not that long ago, a
very experienced helicopter pilot died trying to fly VFR in a
Robinson offshore at night. On a dark night with no surface
lights, it's just like being inside cloud - there is absolutely
no horizon for reference. We only fly in IFR-capable aircraft
with an IFR-current crew. I wouldn't do it alone.

--
Regards,

Stan

Stuart King ) wrote:

I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away
from this, and steer them toward land earlier?

Or perhaps the controller was simply separating your aircraft from the VFR
aircraft?


--
Peter


























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Stan Gosnell me@work wrote in message ...
"Brad Z" wrote in
news:aDEVb.208748$nt4.986888@attbi_s51:

Are you suggesting that flying over the water at night is
not VFR?

I do this for a living, and I'm here to tell you that flying
over water at night is mostly *NOT* VMC. If you're not capable
of, and completely prepared for, flying on instruments, you had
best not be there. People die that way. Not that long ago, a
very experienced helicopter pilot died trying to fly VFR in a
Robinson offshore at night. On a dark night with no surface
lights, it's just like being inside cloud - there is absolutely
no horizon for reference. We only fly in IFR-capable aircraft
with an IFR-current crew. I wouldn't do it alone.

In the U.S. we can even log this as "actual instrument" time (even if
you only hold a non-instrument ticket) even though the weather is
CAVU. If the only way to keep upright is to use the gauges you'd
better be pretty comfortable with IMC.

I believe that's all he legally needs to do from the ATC Handbook (7-1-2-b):

"When, in your judgment, there is reason to believe that flight in VFR
conditions may become impractical, issue an alternative clearance which will
ensure separation from all other aircraft for which you have separation
responsibility."

If ATC vectors you and you lose your required visual cues for VFR flight,
then it's up to you to say "unable." Remember, being a pilot is not a
requirement for controllers. However, a good controller would know not to
vectore you over water if you're VFR.

Marco

"pr" wrote in message
...
Stuart King ) wrote:

I was wondering if controllers intentionally steer VFR flights away
from this, and steer them toward land earlier?

Or perhaps the controller was simply separating your aircraft from the VFR
aircraft?


--
Peter


























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News==----
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Newsgroups
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