Making a VFR C152 IFR

Nathan Young wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:12:50 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:


Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).


Paul,

I see little value add by installing the 300XL VFR only. Did you get
a quote to see how much more an IFR install would be?

Sure, get the quote, but I predict the IFR install is going to push the cost up
to where the avionics cost will start to be asignificant fraction of the value
of the airframe. Much of the cost of an IFR GPS is in the installation and
certification. For the intended use, the value/cost ratio won't be there.
Consider also the cost of datbase updates to keep it certified.

About the other poster who said you'll get more utility with a handheld GPS: I'd
say there's value in having it in the panel instead. I dislike having wires
strung all over the cockpit for antennas and power connections, etc.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Have you ever used a panel mount? They are better. It turns on and off
when the radios do, never needs battery changes and the twist knobs
are easier to use. I have a panel mount (KLN90B) and although the
handhelds show stuff my King doesn't, the King gets used. The 195 only
comes out occasionally.

Paul Folbrecht wrote in message link.net...
Well, I've not yet seen a 300XL up close, but I wouldn't have thought
the quality of the display would pale compared to my 295 (although I
knew I'd lose the color - not a big deal to me - I've seen several
grey-scale handhelds that I thought were fine).

This is more food for thought.

I think that this would be a pretty good plan. Your situation isn't all that
different from ours in our Cherokee a year or so ago. We got a good deal (local) on a
KLX-135 (King VFR GPS/COM), and ebay'd up a KY-197 and KN-53 (no GS)... basically a
KX-155 in two separate boxes. So, we needed the ILS to make it IFR trainable/flyable,
so we found a deal on a KNS-80. I'd assume panel space is a bit of an issue in a 152
so it might be a bit big, but I still maintain that a KNS-80 is great
bang-for-the-buck in used avionics now. Digital VOR/LOC/GS/DME/RNAV... GREAT for ifr
training. If the 300XL weren't also a COM, I might agree with the handheld GPS crowd,
but it's a lot of functionality, and it's more reliable in the panel. My GPS isn't
moving map, but aside from airspace visualizations, I don't miss it.

The trouble with the KX-155 is that it's very popular... thus overly
expensive. Maybe a KN-53 with GS for a stand-alone NAV to go with the GPS/COM.

Sorry for rambling, but it's difficult to find any sort of deal in avionics. My
experience is a bit skewed from most since my installation expenses were very
minimal...

-Cory

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
: Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
: discouraged!

: - 300XL installed *VFR only*.
: - PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
: - KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
: - KX 209 Indicator.

: Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
: antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
: nav/com that's in there now, of course.

: Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
: should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
: spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
: actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
: installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
: I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
: (until I build my RV-9).

: Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
: instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
: approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
: being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
: me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
: discovered that.)

: Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

: Paul Folbrecht wrote:

: I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
: consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.
:
: At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
: instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
: about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
: IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
: that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.
:
: Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
: GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
: suggestions on where to go from there.
:
: Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
: an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.
:
: I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
: until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
: have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
: the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR flight.)
:
: TIA.

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

Agreed, but it doesn't sound like he's got a lot of room on the panel of the
152.

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Have you ever used a panel mount? They are better. It turns on and off
when the radios do, never needs battery changes and the twist knobs
are easier to use. I have a panel mount (KLN90B) and although the
handhelds show stuff my King doesn't, the King gets used. The 195 only
comes out occasionally.

Paul Folbrecht wrote in message
link.net...
Well, I've not yet seen a 300XL up close, but I wouldn't have thought
the quality of the display would pale compared to my 295 (although I
knew I'd lose the color - not a big deal to me - I've seen several
grey-scale handhelds that I thought were fine).

This is more food for thought.

That depends on your comfort level. Unless you want to fly in hard IFR
on a regular basis, you can get by with the minimum equipment. A
handheld GPS and a heldheld radio will serve as good backups in case
you lose electricals. A handheld device is a better backup than a
panel mount device due to the independent power source. In my view
people spend way too much money on these things for the conditions
they are likely to fly in.




Paul Folbrecht wrote in message nk.net...
I was aware of the equipment required by the FARs for IFR, but that
isn't real-world. Right? To fly approaches you need substantially more
equipment than that, of course. The different types of approaches and
equipment make the subject complex at first sight to the neophyte.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

The basic requirement for IFR is not a whole lot more than for VFR.
You don't need two nav's (or any nav at all), although that would be
nice. The FAR outlines what you need to fly IFR. Besides the regular
six pack instruments (except the VSI), your altimeter must be accurate
to within 75 ft, and your transponder's altitude encoder must have
been inspected to IFR standards.

You're saying unless I want to fly in hard IFR all I really need is a
single com and nav VOR with CDI? No glidescope, no marker beacons??

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
That depends on your comfort level. Unless you want to fly in hard IFR
on a regular basis, you can get by with the minimum equipment. A
handheld GPS and a heldheld radio will serve as good backups in case
you lose electricals. A handheld device is a better backup than a
panel mount device due to the independent power source. In my view
people spend way too much money on these things for the conditions
they are likely to fly in.

Like I said, that depends on your comfort level. If you are not going
to be flying in low IFR conditions (ie ILS minimums), you would not
need a glideslope. How many non-commercial pilots do you know who
frequently fly ILS approaches to the minimums? In my case, I will be
lucky to find such conditions about once or twice a year, even though
I fly quite a bit and I actively look for such conditions. A VOR/LOC
approach will bring you down to 500ft. Most of the low weather
conditions are out of reach for us anyway because of ice or
thunderstorm. In a 152, that's an even bigger factor due to the lower
climb performance. Also, in a 152 you are unlikely to go very far, so
it may not be necessary to equip the airplane for all possible
scenarios. Install only the equipment you need for the airports you
are most likely to fly into. Strictly from a utility point of view, I
would be happy to fly a 152 in light IFR conditions with a single NAV.
If I lose NAV, I would request a surveillance approach. If a marker
beacon is required for the approach, then you would need to have it. A
lot of times, ATC radar can substitute for the marker. Many markers
also have a cross radial. If your radio has a standby frequency, then
it is easy to monitor the intersection. It is inconvenient, of course,
but I would not invest thousands of dollars for the inconvenience. On
the other hand, if you want to use the 152 for training purposes, then
you would need more than the minimally equipped airplane. That is just
my personal view.







Paul Folbrecht wrote in message link.net...
You're saying unless I want to fly in hard IFR all I really need is a
single com and nav VOR with CDI? No glidescope, no marker beacons??

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
That depends on your comfort level. Unless you want to fly in hard IFR
on a regular basis, you can get by with the minimum equipment. A
handheld GPS and a heldheld radio will serve as good backups in case
you lose electricals. A handheld device is a better backup than a
panel mount device due to the independent power source. In my view
people spend way too much money on these things for the conditions
they are likely to fly in.

I'm in a similar situation: IFR certified C-150M with a single Narco
MK-12D that has Mkrs, GS and DME and a ARC ADF and a Narco LORAN. I
thought about replacing the Loran with a GPS and decided a handheld
was good enough for VFR/SA--an IFR GPS is too expensive to install and
too expensive to maintain with a current database (on a C-150 budget).
I bought a second Narco Mk-12D (vor/loc only) and plan on removing
the Loran. I'm conflicted about retaining the ADF as it still works
but is such a boat anchor I'll probably either remove it or move it
and its indicator to the glove box area. If relocating it costs
significantly, it will be tossed. This will give me room to move the
transponder to the center stack (from the glove box area), have two
nav/coms and a new audio panel all close at hand in the center. Two
comm radios makes it nice to monitor ATIS without having to go off
freq with ATC. Two navs simplifies the 30 day VOR check as well as
making intersection ID much easier. IFR GPS is certainly nice but I
couldn't justify it in a C-150. I already have DME (IDME 891) so
there is less of a requirement for the IFR GPS. The Cessna 150/152
panel is certainly space challenged, but maybe that's a good thing

wrote:

I think that this would be a pretty good plan. Your situation isn't all that
different from ours in our Cherokee a year or so ago. We got a good deal (local) on a
KLX-135 (King VFR GPS/COM), and ebay'd up a KY-197 and KN-53 (no GS)... basically a
KX-155 in two separate boxes. So, we needed the ILS to make it IFR trainable/flyable,
so we found a deal on a KNS-80. I'd assume panel space is a bit of an issue in a 152
so it might be a bit big, but I still maintain that a KNS-80 is great
bang-for-the-buck in used avionics now. Digital VOR/LOC/GS/DME/RNAV... GREAT for ifr

Agreed, used KNS-80s offer a high bang/buck ratio.

training. If the 300XL weren't also a COM, I might agree with the handheld GPS crowd,
but it's a lot of functionality, and it's more reliable in the panel. My GPS isn't
moving map, but aside from airspace visualizations, I don't miss it.

I'm still debating whether or not to install it or sell it. I need to
find out the install price difference - how much I'd save with just
having the 155/indicator/audio panel installed. I'd have to guess it's
not much.

The trouble with the KX-155 is that it's very popular... thus overly
expensive. Maybe a KN-53 with GS for a stand-alone NAV to go with the GPS/COM.

I picked up a yellow-tagged 155 with glidescope AND a 209 indicator for
$2K.

Sorry for rambling, but it's difficult to find any sort of deal in avionics. My
experience is a bit skewed from most since my installation expenses were very
minimal...

Wish I had that advantage.

Why spend the money to install a panel-mount VFR GPS? A used
portable/battery GPS on Ebay would be much cheaper and would additionally
serve as a battery backup in case you lost your electrical system while IFR.
A used Garmin 196 would be an excellent choice since it has a "partial
panel" page that is a good backup in case of gyro failure; it can even help
you to monitor your IFR approaches via its moving map and thus is more
helpful under IFR than many panel-mount GPS units.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com