Is everybody afraid of World Class?

Todd Smith wrote:
1) good one-design competition ?
NO, it's too damn slow ! and ugly !
and there are not enough around to have good competition !

I have to wonder if any brand new single class glider
could have sold well enough to have widespread competitions?

This is really the LS-4 argument. The real kicker is the
price. I must say if the LS-4s and the Sparrowhawks
of the world were offered at $20k, they might make it as
a World Class glider. But at $40k+, I don't think these
gliders would ever make widespread competition...

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

My question to the PW-5 supporters.

Would YOU buy one ? As the glider YOU flew every good soaring day ?

I wouldn't buy one, but as a low time pilot I would (and did)
rent one, every good soaring day. A Grob-102 simply wasn't
available at that price, perhaps because the insurance
is higher. And the PW-5 cost was low enough it was affordable
for the club to do...

And it's sort of a silly question. At the point most soaring
pilots are ready to buy a glider, they're going to buy
a retract, not a fixed gear anyway, I would guess...

The real winner out of the whole "World Class" and medium
performance low-price competition, in the US at least,
was the Russia. Well, at least until the US distributor folded...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Vaughn wrote:

Sorry, don't agree. The latches we have now fail. Even the self-latching
canopy lock (as in the L-13) must be checked before flight (and should be a
checklist item) the difference is that its NORMAL CONDITION IS SAFE. If you
forget to check it, 99.999% of the time it won't kill you. What can be bad
about that?

From a manufacturers standpoint,
self-latching canopies are a no-no. I don't think we'll ever see
them in manufacture by any company that can ever be sued...

By your logic, how did we ever get manufacturers to design self-connecting
control hookups? (which also should be a checklist item before flight)

Market pressure. And if self-latching canopies are to come,
this is how they will happen. Lower insurance rates for
vehicles that have them.

Thank God for thermals. Because of them, all gliders (that I know of
anyway) have shoulder harnesses. This keeps glider insurance rates WAY
down. Coincidence, yes, but we were way ahead of the power guys,
thankfully.

You mentioned 12 people saying "why wasn't this put in?"
In a business class I remember reviewing a case where
a lawn-mover manufacturer had the opportunity to put
a safety bar in front of the rotor to stop fingers getting
chopped off (this had been a problem in the past). The
manufacturer management quietly declined in an internal
memo. This would have been seen as an admission that the
previous design was unsafe, and opened the door for those
darned 12 jurors...

Of course other competitors started doing this, and the manufacturer
simply and quietly stopped making lawnmowers...

So Vaughn, you have a great idea, but somebody is
gonna have to be the first to try it. And 12 high-school
graduates aged 65+ are pretty prone to think the newsy-bewsy
stuff failed vs. condemning the industry standard.

I'm not saying it's right, just that there's reasons.
If you have a good foolproof self-latch, pray tell...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

IF flying gliders lived up to the promise, more or less that of one
person going up and doing his own thing then coming down and having a
good bull session with friends, it would be ok, but it does not. The
person that knows his limits, both in money to spend and risk he is
willing to take will put up with an unwarranted barrage of ****mouth
from a few that seem to think God only gave brains to them.
Unfortunately, what God gave them was a big mouth and an empty head.
What difference does it make to you if someone is flying only local in
a 1-26, 2-33 or PW? What difference does it make to you that maybe
he's happy with the situation as it is, content with what he has.
What does it take away from you if he's not interested in competition
or badges, even could care less about a diamond, microscopic as they
are? Just exactly what does it take away from you if someone follows
his own interests and ignores yours? How does it hurt you if he is
flying in a PW and liking it? What is it taking away from you if he
does? The activity itself, flying gliders, might make sense, it's the
pilots that don't.

This is so far the most intelligent statement out of this whole "meat
throwing" so called discussion...I know that its tempting for some,
but don't add anything else.

Marcel Duenner wrote:
Janos Bauer wrote in message . ..

szd-55 flyer wrote:

How we get stupid people like you in soaring ?
If DG design and make new LS4 right now ,it would new cost about $70,000
Pw-5 new cost $22,000
All pilots be aware of idiots!!!

A new szd55 is about 35k... Maybe a Discus CS is also at this price range.

/Janos



Where can I buy it????
I don't think you can buy a new Discus CS for much less than 50k$ in
Europe.
Just before they went bust LS offered LS4b for 45k€ IIRC (54k$).

http://www.szdusa.com/catalog.html states the SZD at 39k$ with
delivery by June 1999! I doubt very much the price has gone down
since. And those prices are without instruments. PW-5 price then was
20k$ incl. basic instruments.

I don't know if it's outdated but try this link:
http://www.avionic.pl

/Janos

In article ,
(Todd Smith) wrote:

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

A 102? That's a good few steps below a Libelle or Cirrus. In fact, I
think you'd have trouble beating a PW5 most days (in north island NZ
conditions at least). Hell, I remember when I was flying a K6 and a guy
in his G102 asked if I minded if he followed me.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Totally ignoring that it is flying ONLY against others of the same
type. It's no uglier than any other plastic ship. They all suck.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Oh well.
As far as only flying against other PW-5's most of the time, I
am just flying randomly XC to see where I can get to. Whenever
I cross bad sink, or a strong headwind, then I want speed.

My question to the PW-5 supporters.

Would YOU buy one ? As the glider YOU flew every good soaring day ?
If you want the class to grow, sell whatever you have and buy a PW-5.

If you can give any rational reason that you want them to disappear,
and the class to die, other than "it's not your thing", it might shed
snip

I don't want them to disappear, but this thread in particular accused us
"non-suporters" of being afraid of the WC and asked why we don't support it.
I think it was a poor idea and was poorly executed.

When I started, my interest was in the 1-26, and in particular, MY
snip

I like the 1-26, and if I had a little less cash on hand would have bought
one instead of the Grob.

Todd Smith
G102 3S

Yeah Todd you really gained a lot by going with used G102, about 1
more L/D and a paint job that is going to cost you another
G102...Right on!

20 years old and the gelcoat is still beautiful !

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:412a94ee$1@darkstar...
Todd Smith wrote:
1) good one-design competition ?
NO, it's too damn slow ! and ugly !
and there are not enough around to have good competition !

I have to wonder if any brand new single class glider
could have sold well enough to have widespread competitions?

This is really the LS-4 argument. The real kicker is the
price. I must say if the LS-4s and the Sparrowhawks
of the world were offered at $20k, they might make it as
a World Class glider. But at $40k+, I don't think these
gliders would ever make widespread competition...

The real issue with "any" new glider is that the instruments,
radio, trailer cost $10000us or more.

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

My question to the PW-5 supporters.

Would YOU buy one ? As the glider YOU flew every good soaring day ?

I wouldn't buy one, but as a low time pilot I would (and did)
rent one, every good soaring day. A Grob-102 simply wasn't
available at that price, perhaps because the insurance
is higher. And the PW-5 cost was low enough it was affordable
for the club to do...

As a low time pilot I would rent any glider that was available.

And it's sort of a silly question. At the point most soaring
pilots are ready to buy a glider, they're going to buy
a retract, not a fixed gear anyway, I would guess...

That's my whole damn point !!! When it is time for a new pilot
to buy a glider he want's the best he can get for his money.
If the the WC was an LS-4 or Discus CS, then I at least would have
had no hesitation in buying one.


Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

The problem as I see it with self-latching canopies on modern
sailplanes has several quite thorny aspects, and I have no intention
of going there.

The key to the problem is the activation impulse required to activate
self engaging latches: the slam.

As a first experiment, I'd suggest you go buy an ASW-27, remove the
gas spring from the canopy pivot mechanism, and then spam the canopy
closed several hundred times. Please report your findings in this
forum.



Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

The problem as I see it with self-latching canopies on modern
sailplanes has several quite thorny aspects, and I have no intention
of going there.

The key to the problem is the activation impulse required to activate
self engaging latches: the slam.

As a first experiment, I'd suggest you go buy an ASW-27, remove the
gas spring from the canopy pivot mechanism, and then spam the canopy
closed several hundred times. Please report your findings in this
forum.

On my ASH 26 E, the gas spring and the weight of the canopy supply a
noticeable closing force when the canopy is held open a few inches. I
think this would be plenty to engage a simple latch that would keep the
canopy from opening in flight. By "opening", I mean it might allow the
rear edge of the canopy to rise an inch or two, but no more. The usual
latches would still be used to secure it closed.

In fact, the "Roeger hook" mechanism it has already works like this.
It's two small springs in the fuslage that the spike on the canopy
engage as it is lowered the last 10 mm or so. I don't think the canopy
needs to be totally self-latching, as a partial latch that keeps the
canopy from flying completely open would be a big improvement. It would
pop up and inch or two during tow, alerting the pilot to the situation
without causing him a problem. He could release and land, or perhaps
simply push it closed after releasing from a normal tow.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA