Class A airspace

Kilo Charlie wrote:

Remember when the OLC was FUN?


And sex was safe???


When was that?


Jack

wrote:
snip
Yet, as I said, that's irrelevant. Should a glider encounter an
airliner or any other IFR aircraft above 18,000 (or in other controlled
airspace) with newsworthy consequences....

Let's hope it does not come to this. All we really need are a few
official near-miss reports from hevay drivers who see a little too much
glider above 18K, and we will have to deal with the unwanted attention.
It is normal procedure for airline pilots to file near-miss
reports--they do it all the time. I had to take evasive action with a
727 who turned toward me a while back, and when I filed my near-miss
report after landing, I was told that the other pilot had alredy filed
his.

If you think this is unlikely because the big boys mostly stay up above
30K, think again. The turboprop commuter fleet is being replaced with
commuter jets that often cruise near the bottom of the Class A. So,
it's getting more crowded there.

The FAA is responsible for enforcement, so we can leave that to them.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement, and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement. Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct. So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is not Orwell's "Big
Brother" it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

"Jack" wrote in message
et...
Kilo Charlie wrote:

Remember when the OLC was FUN?


And sex was safe???


When was that?

Ahh.....give me a minute.....when I was in high school??? We only worried
about getting girls pregnant not if we would die from it. That was a long
time ago though. But we digress.....apologies because this is a great
thread and should keep on track. :-)

KC


Jack

Doug Haluza wrote:

It is normal procedure for airline pilots to file near-miss
reports--they do it all the time. I had to take evasive action with a
727 who turned toward me a while back, and when I filed my near-miss
report after landing, I was told that the other pilot had alredy filed
his.

You are talking NTSB reports? How would anyone know? They are
confidential. Someone may have made the comment that he was about to, or
that he had -- but a lot of good intentions go by the boards, too. On
the other hand, airline pilots do file NTSB reports fairly often, as
anyone can. In fact, more people should file them.



The FAA is responsible for enforcement, so we can leave that to them.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement, and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement. Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct. So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is not Orwell's "Big
Brother" it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is "obvious"? Sounds like a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured out, will you?


Jack

I totally agree with Chip. My personal response to all of this came years
back when after many long high final glides (not in the class A) back to PHX
from the north realized that my back was turned to the heavies descending
into Sky Harbor and had no chance of seeing me.....I couldn't even see the
glider a mile in front of me at that time of day and altitude that I knew
was there....so I installed a mode C transponder. Not that I am a very
altruistic type but figured that if one of them hit me and went down it
would change the face of soaring and general aviation forever....so I did it
as much if not more for the sport as for me.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Jack wrote:
Doug Haluza wrote:

It is normal procedure for airline pilots to file near-miss
reports--they do it all the time. I had to take evasive action with a
727 who turned toward me a while back, and when I filed my near-miss
report after landing, I was told that the other pilot had alredy filed
his.

You are talking NTSB reports? How would anyone know? They are
confidential. Someone may have made the comment that he was about to, or
that he had -- but a lot of good intentions go by the boards, too. On
the other hand, airline pilots do file NTSB reports fairly often, as
anyone can. In fact, more people should file them.

No, I was talking about an near miss report filed with the ATC center
responsible for the airspace. There is a desk that handles these, so
they are aware of all reports.

The FAA is responsible for enforcement, so we can leave that to them.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement, and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement. Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct. So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is not Orwell's "Big
Brother" it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is "obvious"? Sounds like a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured out, will you?

Well, you're right about this, it's not easy. Altitude errors in the
flight referenece altimeter and logger can be several hunded feet, but
a flight over 20,000' MSL corrected for field elevation at takeoff is
certainly a problem, probably over 19,000' MSL too. We don't want to
define a hard number, because that would set a limit for "allowable"
cheating. So anything 18,000' or over is questionable, and the question
must be answered by the pilot.

Pilots should be making a good faith effort to remain clear of Class A,
and not post flights to the OLC if they know they failed to do this
(whether intentional or not). They should also analyze their flight,
and if the trace has altitudes 18,000 feet or over after correcting for
QNH at field elevation, a comment in the claim is required. If they
don't have a reasonable explanation, they should not post it, or they
should remove the claim if someone else points this out to them. If no
reasonable explanation is given, it may also be removed by an OLC
Admin.

So, while we are not in the business of punishing bad behavior, we are
not in the business of rewarding it either.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack

wrote:
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

What major contest? If you mean an SSA sanctioned contest, that would
be an automatic 0 points for the day, and an additional 100 point
penalty. If you mean something like the Gerlach Dash, some restricted
areas have listed max altitudes, some have schedules listed on the
sectionals and it is perfectly legal to enter them during inactive
hours, and some can be readily entered with a simple radio call,
particularly on weekends...

Marc

Maybe the airspace was cold? If so, the pilot should add a comment about it.

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Forget Class A, how about the guy that infringes on restricted airspace
and STILL submits the flight on OLC in order to win a major contest!!

Pressure differences etc can be explained but ploughing through
restricted airspace in this time of GPS is not excusable.

Al


Stewart Kissel wrote:
Before data loggers and the OLC...pilots had no record
of how high they flew other then a barograph, and no
doubt Class A was getting busted. What irks me is
not someone close to Class A...but those that deliberatley
violate and then post their flights. This behaviour
is bad for our sport on a couple of levels...so I whole-heartedly
support Doug and the OLC bunch on keeping an eye on
it. We are much to small a group to be nothing but
dust-in-the-wind if a glider brings down an airliner.
An those flying in busy airspace are to be commended
for using transponders...

Within reason I think a little self-policing can go
a long way, because we as pilots have a much better
idea of what is going on then the FAA(for the most
part). Flame shield activated.
But the pilot community is responsible for reinforcement,
and rewarding
pilots who break the rules gives negative reinforcement.
Aside from the
regulatory issues, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.
So, we will
remove OLC flight claims that show ovbious violation
of Class-A
airspace without a reasonable explanation. This is
not Orwell's 'Big
Brother' it's more like Big Brothers and Big Sisters.

I'm with you, Doug, but what is 'obvious'? Sounds like
a sticky little
detail. Let us know when the SSA/OLC bunch get it figured
out, will you?


Jack