F-86 and sound barrier

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:33:37 -0700, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:

Snipped botched lobotomy induced drivel....

I thought California was restricting internet access at State institutions.
Guess they haven't gotten to Tarver's ward yet....

I recently read a newspaper story about a Jackass that wandered away from
a petting zoo and was struck by some dork doing 120 mph in a WRX.

Figured he was still in the hospital....

I wonder if Tarver even knows what a WRX is? I'm pretty sure he can't spell it.

Finally, is this a relative of your's Tarver?

From Annanova.com:
"A student cut off his own penis and his tongue after drinking an infusion of
the latest drugs craze to sweep Germany.

The 18-year-old, only named as Andreas W, from Halle in Germany drank a tea made
with the hallucinogenic angels' trumpet plants.

His mother said: "Andreas was behaving normally the whole day until he left the
house and disappeared into the garden for a couple of minutes."

When he returned to the house he was wearing a towel wrapped around him and was
bleeding heavily from his mouth and between his legs.

The emergency doctor who arrived a few minutes later said the student had cut
off his penis and his tongue with garden shears and it was impossible to
reattach the organs."

I ask because you have a lot in common, including not being able to talk about
getting laid....

5 little known facts about Tarver:

5) His favorite pickup line is; "hey babe, your place or my moms?"
4) His greatest moment of clarity arrived and all he could say was, "Someone
pull this wolverine off my nutsack!"
3) Chuck Yeager stopped by to see his simulator, but figured he didn't want to

sit in another AN-AL-2003 certified Cambodian fart basket.
2) Tarver is really a cranky South L.A. Korean grocer.
1) The inside of his hat smells like someone cured a Christmas ham in it.


Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

"Corey C. Jordan" wrote:

On 23 Sep 2003 07:47:41 -0700, (Walt BJ) wrote:

Exceeding M1.0 in either the Sabre or the Dog was no big deal. You
just pointed them straight down from 40+ and didn't fight it if it
wanted to roll around .95(flap rigging, usually).
Question: didn't Edwards get boomed when Welch went supersonic?
Walt BJ

It certainly did!

Prior to heading back to North American to debrief with the engineers, Welch
telephoned a friend that he had briefed the day before about what to be
listening for. Excitedly, his friend related that they had been nearly blown out
of bed by a terribly loud ba-boom. The time was noted and it corresponded to
George's dive.

Major General Joseph Swing heard the boom and reported it to Stu Symington.
Hundreds of others heard it too. Many wives ran outside looking for the
tell-tale plume of smoke indicating a crash, but there wasn't any smoke to see.

Ask any of the NAA guys (or the Bell crew as well) who were there at the time.
Welch's boom was quite loud, far more so than Yeagers would be (which makes
sense when you consider that Welch was diving towards the base, whereas Yeager
was in level flight at higher altitude).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the XP-86 still have the 4,000 lb. thrust J35C-3
at that time? Quite a ways down on thrust from the 5,200 lb. J47-13 of the F-86A,
and the top speed of the XP-86 in the only reference I have handy is given as 618
mph @ 14,000 ft. and 575 mph @ 35,000 ft. (M0.875), versus the 677 (presumably lower
down) of the F-86A. The XP-86 is credited in the same source with first exceeding
Mach 1 on 26 April 1948, but it's implied (not explicitly stated) that it did so on
a 3,920 lb. thrust J35-A-5, and that the J47 was first installed in the F-86A. This
seems more than a bit odd, to install an untried engine in the production a/c
without flying it in the prototype first.

I've read pilot's accounts that say that some F-86As would 'hang up' and not quite
make it through the mach if you didn't do the roll in right, which suggests that the
XP-86 with its lower thrust might well have trouble. Of course, if exceeding mach
was mainly a question of drag rather than excess thrust, then it shouldn't have been
a major problem. I've just always wondered.

Guy

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:24:21 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:


Was this the same George Welch who flew a
P-40 out of Halewia, Oahu on
the morning of 7 Dec 41, killing pair of Vals,
a Kate and a Zero, before
being a P-38 ace in SWPA? IIRC he was KIFA
in a F-100 in the mid 1950s.

Yes, this was the same lunatic. LOL

Welch was credited with 4 kills at Pearl Harbor
and his wingman (Taylor)
swears that Welch got another two that crashed
out to sea. His wingman shot down
another two and damaged several others. Between
them, they accounted for
6 kills, two prabables and several damaged.
That's nearly 21% of all Japanese
combat losses at Pearl (as much as 28% if you
counted the two probably shot
down).

Later while flying P-39Ds, Welch shot down three
more fighters (one sortie)
bringing his score up to seven. After he transferred
to the 8th FG flying P-38s,
he added nine more before a life-threatening
case of malaria sent him home.

Welch is one of only a handful of American fighter
pilots that scored kills in
three different fighter types.

Every time Welch shot down any Japanese aircraft,
he got at least 2, and killed
4 on two occasions.

His peers believed that had he not become deathly
ill, he would have challenged,
and possibly even outpaced Bong and McGuire
in total victories.

As it was, Hap Arnold set up an interview for
Welch with North American. Some
believe that this was his way of making up for
Welch not getting the CMoH due to
someone in the chain of command disapproving
the recommendation because Welch
took off without specific orders. Arnold was
incensed with Squadron CO Maj
Gordon H. Austin, but it seems Austin probably
approved the recommendation.
Although bounced back to CONUS, Austin was given
command of a P-40 outfit that
he took to North Africa where he shot down 3
enemy aircraft while flying more
than 100 combat hours. Later Austin commanded
the 319th BG (a B-26 outfit) where
he logged another 115 hours. In 1944 he was
transferred stateside where he
served in many posts until he retired as a highly
decorated Major General in
1966. If he is still alive, he would be 90 years
old.

It's likely that someone in the USAAF command
structure at Pearl Harbor gave
Welch the deep six. Who that was is unknown
to me.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
There are two possible suspects:Brigadier General Howard Davidson, who
commanded the 14th Pursuit Wing on Oahu, or Major General Fredrick L. Martin,
who commanded the HAF. Unless there was a Pursuit Group CO somewhere in the
middle-weren't these two generals sacked?

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

o on
a 3,920 lb. thrust J35-A-5, and that the J47 was first installed in the
F-86A. This
seems more than a bit odd, to install an untried engine in the production a/c

The three XF-86As (sic) were all brought up to 'F-86A-1' standard by the time
they were delivered to the Air Force; that included fitting the J47.

Duncan

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88,
the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

But Corey, you lied about Copp, so why would anyone at ram ever
believe you
again?

How about me? I don't know Copp from Copralite, but I _know_ that the
Me 262
was a subsonic airframe with subsonic engines.

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?

'zactly

In article ,
Guy Alcala writes:
"Corey C. Jordan" wrote:

On 23 Sep 2003 07:47:41 -0700, (Walt BJ) wrote:

Exceeding M1.0 in either the Sabre or the Dog was no big deal. You
just pointed them straight down from 40+ and didn't fight it if it
wanted to roll around .95(flap rigging, usually).
Question: didn't Edwards get boomed when Welch went supersonic?
Walt BJ

It certainly did!

Prior to heading back to North American to debrief with the engineers, Welch
telephoned a friend that he had briefed the day before about what to be
listening for. Excitedly, his friend related that they had been nearly blown out
of bed by a terribly loud ba-boom. The time was noted and it corresponded to
George's dive.

Major General Joseph Swing heard the boom and reported it to Stu Symington.
Hundreds of others heard it too. Many wives ran outside looking for the
tell-tale plume of smoke indicating a crash, but there wasn't any smoke to see.

Ask any of the NAA guys (or the Bell crew as well) who were there at the time.
Welch's boom was quite loud, far more so than Yeagers would be (which makes
sense when you consider that Welch was diving towards the base, whereas Yeager
was in level flight at higher altitude).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the XP-86 still have the 4,000 lb. thrust J35C-3
at that time? Quite a ways down on thrust from the 5,200 lb. J47-13 of the F-86A,
and the top speed of the XP-86 in the only reference I have handy is given as 618
mph @ 14,000 ft. and 575 mph @ 35,000 ft. (M0.875), versus the 677 (presumably lower
down) of the F-86A. The XP-86 is credited in the same source with first exceeding
Mach 1 on 26 April 1948, but it's implied (not explicitly stated) that it did so on
a 3,920 lb. thrust J35-A-5, and that the J47 was first installed in the F-86A. This
seems more than a bit odd, to install an untried engine in the production a/c
without flying it in the prototype first.

The rather low thrust of the XP-86s is quite true, but in the case of
diving one through the Mach, it's pretty much irrelevant. The big
factor in barging into the region o rising drag isn't the 1,000-1,200#
of pusth that you're getting from the J35 at 40,000', bit the 13,000#
of gravity assist that you get in the dive. Of course, with such a
low thrust/weight, it took forever to get up there.

Roland Beamont made a "flying trip" to the U.S. in '47-'48 to assess
the various projects that were going on, and to get some first-hand
experience with American aircraft developments. (He flew the P-80A,
the P-84A, a B-45 prototype, and an XP-86) He did, in fact, make a
transonic dive in a J35 power XP-86. He did a series of article
about this trip, includig the flight test reports, in "Aeroplane" back
in 'bout 1988 or 1989. They were also chapters in "Testing the Early
Jets".

I've read pilot's accounts that say that some F-86As would 'hang up' and not quite
make it through the mach if you didn't do the roll in right, which suggests that the
XP-86 with its lower thrust might well have trouble. Of course, if exceeding mach
was mainly a question of drag rather than excess thrust, then it shouldn't have been
a major problem. I've just always wondered.

It's not so much a matter of thrust, as making sure you've got enough
dive angle on before you start getting into the thicker air below,
say, 20,000'. If you didn't get it pointed pretty much straight down,
you'd be running into thick air pretty fast.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Peter Stickney wrote:

In article ,
Guy Alcala writes:
"Corey C. Jordan" wrote:

On 23 Sep 2003 07:47:41 -0700, (Walt BJ) wrote:

Exceeding M1.0 in either the Sabre or the Dog was no big deal. You
just pointed them straight down from 40+ and didn't fight it if it
wanted to roll around .95(flap rigging, usually).
Question: didn't Edwards get boomed when Welch went supersonic?
Walt BJ

It certainly did!

Prior to heading back to North American to debrief with the engineers, Welch
telephoned a friend that he had briefed the day before about what to be
listening for. Excitedly, his friend related that they had been nearly blown out
of bed by a terribly loud ba-boom. The time was noted and it corresponded to
George's dive.

Major General Joseph Swing heard the boom and reported it to Stu Symington.
Hundreds of others heard it too. Many wives ran outside looking for the
tell-tale plume of smoke indicating a crash, but there wasn't any smoke to see.

Ask any of the NAA guys (or the Bell crew as well) who were there at the time.
Welch's boom was quite loud, far more so than Yeagers would be (which makes
sense when you consider that Welch was diving towards the base, whereas Yeager
was in level flight at higher altitude).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the XP-86 still have the 4,000 lb. thrust J35C-3
at that time? Quite a ways down on thrust from the 5,200 lb. J47-13 of the F-86A,
and the top speed of the XP-86 in the only reference I have handy is given as 618
mph @ 14,000 ft. and 575 mph @ 35,000 ft. (M0.875), versus the 677 (presumably lower
down) of the F-86A. The XP-86 is credited in the same source with first exceeding
Mach 1 on 26 April 1948, but it's implied (not explicitly stated) that it did so on
a 3,920 lb. thrust J35-A-5, and that the J47 was first installed in the F-86A. This
seems more than a bit odd, to install an untried engine in the production a/c
without flying it in the prototype first.

The rather low thrust of the XP-86s is quite true, but in the case of
diving one through the Mach, it's pretty much irrelevant. The big
factor in barging into the region o rising drag isn't the 1,000-1,200#
of pusth that you're getting from the J35 at 40,000', bit the 13,000#
of gravity assist that you get in the dive. Of course, with such a
low thrust/weight, it took forever to get up there.

Roland Beamont made a "flying trip" to the U.S. in '47-'48 to assess
the various projects that were going on, and to get some first-hand
experience with American aircraft developments. (He flew the P-80A,
the P-84A, a B-45 prototype, and an XP-86) He did, in fact, make a
transonic dive in a J35 power XP-86. He did a series of article
about this trip, includig the flight test reports, in "Aeroplane" back
in 'bout 1988 or 1989. They were also chapters in "Testing the Early
Jets".

snip

I've read the latter, and also some article he (I think) wrote elsewhere in which he said
that it was somewhat in doubt whether
he had indeed broken the Mach, owing to instrument error.

Guy

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?

'zactly

As opposed to the parrot being a dinosaur poop salesman.

Shafer and Bon-Myer were lucky to be let walk away, as opposed to some
Federal charges. In addition to that RIF, Dryden is looking at a cut from
$120 million this year to $80 million in FY04. The money that I made fall
from the sky for 15 years is gone, along with any credibility the facility
still had. Thanks Dudley.

Shafer and Bon-Myer were lucky to be let walk away, as opposed to some
Federal charges.

snip

John, I don't know what you have against Mary, but from my personal experience,
she was just a gem to my son and I. He has some priceless memories due
directly to her and during our visits, it was clearly obvious that she was
looked upon as a highly respected fixture in the Dryden landscape.

Gordon