Lost comms after radar vector

Personally I consider a handheld GPS essential equipment. I don't
want to fly IMC in a plane where a single-point failure can take
out the electrical system, without one. I also don't want to be
in a position where I can't just use it to navigate to VMC.

I can't imagine not having a handheld GPS in the plane. Both my
partner and i have them, so there's usually at least two, if not three
on board when we fly, instrument or not. One of these days I'll
actually have the guts to finish that rating... i'm finally
comfortable flying in actual enough to think i actually CAN do it ^;

(BTW, thanks to you and Tigger, I've got a little Lima Traveler that I
have been playing with up till recently. fantastic little plane!)

sue***
if you're not part of the solution, you must be part of the
precipitate....
email above is spam protected, make corrections to

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:eaAPb.96486$Rc4.581993@attbi_s54...

"Could" and "would" are different concepts here.


How so?



It is physically possible to hold at many fixes in situations where such
holding is not desirable or sensible.


But it is not physically possible to hold at a fix that cannot be
determined.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:wNAPb.100744$nt4.298913@attbi_s51...

Take it out of context if you must -- I described much more than dead
reckoning after that.


What do you believe I took out of context? I gave you a scenario:

"Okay. I'm heading to Milwaukee from Grand Rapids. I've filed the
preferential, GRR..MKG.V2.SUDDS..MKE, and have been cleared as filed.
I'm flying a BE35/U; two nav/comms, GS receiver, ADF, and marker
beacon receiver. At MINNY I discover I cannot transmit or receive on
either comm radio. How do I hold over the airport?"

Your entire response was :

"Per AIM 5-3-7.c:

Over MKE
Standard pattern (right turn, 1 or 1 1/2 minute legs)
On the course from SUDDS to MKE
At your cleared altitude
Until the time calculated per 91.185(c)(3)(ii)"

Seeking clarification I asked; "How do I navigate from SUDDS to MKE?"

You answered; "Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight
planning. [From the question, I assume MKE doesn't have a VOR at the field.
I'm in Seattle, and don't have charts or other pubs for the MKE area, so
I'll fast-forward you to
WA.]"

So, again, what am I taking out of context? If you're not saying you'd
navigate to the clearance limit and hold over a navaid-free field using only
dead-reckoning then what are you saying?



The NACO IFR charts appear to be available by purchase/subscription only,
and are not actually available on line. However, there happens to be a
TPP
Change Notice currently on line for the ILS 01L at MKE. From the plate,
it
looks like you could find the airport using a VOR/VOR fix with BAE and
HRK. You would have a variety of MM and IM beacons to choose from and use
for
cross-checks.


I know how to find the field, that's not the question. The question is how
do I navigate from SUDDS direct to MKE and hold there?



Where did I claim to navigate via dead reckoning only?


Answered above.



Have you never plotted or flown point-to-point?


Many times. You?

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:EhBPb.100820$nt4.298386@attbi_s51...

If I have not been explicitly told to expect an approach, and an IAF was
the last filed point on my flight plan, I would consider that IAF as my
clearance limit.


Your clearance limit is the point that followed "cleared to", normally the
destination airport.



Note also that the "route filed in the flight plan" (91.185(c)(1)(iv))
generally terminates at an IAF (it is good practice to ensure it does).
Seldom is the airport itself in the route block.


Irrelevant. The clearance limit is always the point to which the aircraft
is cleared, it is not the last fix in the route block.



I have always been taught that regardless of the "cleared to destination
airport" terminology in the IFR clearance received just prior to takeoff,
the actual clearance limit -- and the ETE calculation for the route -- is
to the last NAVAID/Fix/waypoint entered in the Route of Flight block
of the flight plan -- normally the IAF.


Then you have always been taught wrong.



This concept is backed up in Para. 5-1-4.K and 5-1-7.f of the AIM,
as well as 91.185(c)(3)(i) and 91.185(c)(3)(ii):


How so?



However, in the case where "Cleared direct Milwaukee" is given airborne,
that is, in fact, an amendment to the filed flight plan.


"Cleared direct Milwaukee" wasn't given at any time.



That is where 91.185(c)(3)(ii) could come into play (assuming there is no
NAVAID or Fix named MKE or MLWKE).


There are no navaids at MKE.



You navigate direct toward overhead the airport (and if you
cannot, you do not accept the clearance in the first place).


You're free to decline that clearance, but doing so means you've cancelled
your flight.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:0zGPb.97614$Rc4.594579@attbi_s54...

The concept of the 'final fix in the Route of Flight block of the flight
plan as the de facto clearance limit' was discussed at the review
conference for the Instrument Manual the year I attended. The
FAA reps agreed that it was a reasonable and proper interpretation
of the rules,


It is neither.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:zqBPb.98986$5V2.329327@attbi_s53...

Nope. I use it all the time when sailing, kayaking, and rowing.
I also use it a lot when flying VFR. I use it as a basis for IFR
navigation as well:


Swell. Please explain how you'd use it to navigate from SUDDS to MKE and
hold at MKE.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:n5CPb.98388$sv6.406983@attbi_s52...

It seems you're taking statements out of context again... The question
was:

"Gary Drescher" wrote...

Let's say you lack RNAV, and your destination airport has an off-field
VOR approach, no DME, and no other nearby navaid. How would
you propose to use that airport as a holding fix if you're going to hold
for an hour?

To make it a bit more clear, "I don't" propose to hold at such a fix for
an hour.


No, the question was; "How do I navigate from SUDDS to MKE?"

You answered; "Direct, using the time/heading/distance from your preflight
planning."



OTOH YOUR question, was "How do I hold over the airport?":

Okay. I'm heading to Milwaukee from Grand Rapids. I've filed the
preferential, GRR..MKG.V2.SUDDS..MKE, and have been cleared as filed.
I'm flying a BE35/U; two nav/comms, GS receiver, ADF, and marker
beacon receiver. At MINNY I discover I cannot transmit or receive on
either comm radio. How do I hold over the airport?

To which I responded:

Per AIM 5-3-7.c:

Over MKE
Standard pattern (right turn, 1 or 1 1/2 minute legs)
On the course from SUDDS to MKE
At your cleared altitude
Until the time calculated per 91.185(c)(3)(ii)

Since I don't know whether or not SUDDS is an IAF, I simply answered the
question, assuming that in the situation you described, you might choose
to
hold over the airport.


SUDDS is not an IAF, and it wouldn't matter if it was.



After finding an approach plate for MKE (which does not show SUDDS) on
line this AM, I can further clarify by noting that you can use the BAE and
HRK VORs to plot a VOR/VOR fix over the airport, and use that as your
holding point, should you choose to hold over the airport.


It's not a matter of choosing, MKE is the clearance limit.



You can back up that fix by tuning your ILS receiver to an appropriate
frequency (e.g., 110.3 for the I-MKE ILS 01R) and use your marker
beacon receiver to note passage over a MM or IM. Depending on
your inbound course, you might be able to get some useful LOC
information, but I wouldn't rely on it.

WOULD I do that for an hour? I doubt it -- I can't come up with a
rational scenario.

COULD I do it for a couple turns, given a scenario where I decided it was
the right thing to do? Yes! An HSI would make it easier, but it could be
done with a pair of CDIs.

A fix defined by the intersection of 2 VOR radials is sufficient for
navigation. It may take a bit of time to plot the 2 radials, and a few
more seconds to plot the course and distance from SUDDS to MKE,
but each of those is a basic navigation process. You might have even
done it in your preflight planning, and annotated your Sectional and/or
Low Alt IFR chart just for situational awareness...


Or I could just track V2 to the runway 25 localizer and fly inbound, or
several other things that are simpler than what you suggest. But navigation
isn't the issue here, the issue is compliance with FAR 91.185.

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...

I guess you do have to plan for two or more at one time. How often does
one occur and have you ever had two at once?


Rarely and never.



I thought that the code appeared on the CRT along with my position.
Does it?


It does if I select to see the codes.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:vkTPb.101675$sv6.444366@attbi_s52...

If you attain VMC and can maintain VMC and VFR, squawk 1276
and continue VFR.


Why 1276? 1276 is for use ADIZ penetration when contact cannot be
established with ATC.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

But it is not physically possible to hold at a fix that cannot be
determined.

True. However, a fix over an airport CAN be determined. At MKE, that could be
an intersection of 2 VOR radials -- BAE and HRK. There are also several NDBs in
the area. Cross-checks can be made in some situations via LOC and Marker
Beacons.