Don Henly, Dubya, & Linda Ronstadt

know_buddee wrote:

They can't face the obvious fact that the thousands Iraqis and
Americans who've been killed and crippled would have been healthy and
happy people today - if it weren't for dubya's dumb (flat out evil)
insistance on invading Iraq.

There are mass graves in Iraq that prove that statement is false...but please,
don't let facts get in the way of your hatred.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Dana Miller" wrote

Saddam had been filling those graves for decades before we took action.
What changed? What REALLY changed?

3000 dead, billions in losses. The US can't afford to sit around and wait
for threats to mature.

North Korea, Iran, Sudan, etc, are certainly targets, but the threat isn't as
great as Iraq. As we see in Iraq, as we saw in Afghanistan, their are
numbers of groups who care very little about anything, unless it is out of
a barrel of a gun. We need to kill them in large numbers.

When the Marines surrendered in Falluja, I decided then and there, that
the Bush regime had failed us, and I will no longer vote for them. The war
is lost, and we might as well let France dictate the next era.

"Billy Preston" wrote:

"Dana Miller" wrote

Saddam had been filling those graves for decades before we took action.
What changed? What REALLY changed?

3000 dead, billions in losses. The US can't afford to sit around and wait
for threats to mature.

North Korea, Iran, Sudan, etc, are certainly targets, but the threat isn't as
great as Iraq. As we see in Iraq, as we saw in Afghanistan, their are
numbers of groups who care very little about anything, unless it is out of
a barrel of a gun. We need to kill them in large numbers.

Well, as daunting as someplace like the Balkans can be
regarding war and stability, there is a pragmatic aspect and a
humanitarian aspect to US intervention abroad. Taking a stand and
actually DOING something in Rwanda, the Balkans, Sudan, etc can
literally be described as protecting Muslims from genocidal murders.
That *has* to be powerful stuff if applied properly. It's a lot harder
to be hated by Muslims when you are all over the world saving them. A
lot of the problem has been inaction, and not properly using the good
acts to generate goodwill - our P.R. is pretty awful. Ironic
considering the size of the US ad and media industries.


When the Marines surrendered in Falluja, I decided then and there, that
the Bush regime had failed us, and I will no longer vote for them. The war
is lost, and we might as well let France dictate the next era.

The Marines don't appear to be in a surrendering mood these
past few days. I also wondered about the previous cease-fire, but it
appears to have been a "biding time" play by al-Sadr's militia. I
doubt there will be a second cease-fire.

"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
"Billy Preston" wrote:



Well, as daunting as someplace like the Balkans can be
regarding war and stability, there is a pragmatic aspect and a
humanitarian aspect to US intervention abroad. Taking a stand and
actually DOING something in Rwanda, the Balkans, Sudan, etc can
literally be described as protecting Muslims from genocidal murders.

Problem is damm few of those killed in Rwanda were Muslims
and its Arab militants killing black animists and Christians
in the Sudan. Note the Arab league just voted to support the
line of the Sudanese government.

That *has* to be powerful stuff if applied properly. It's a lot harder
to be hated by Muslims when you are all over the world saving them. A
lot of the problem has been inaction, and not properly using the good
acts to generate goodwill - our P.R. is pretty awful. Ironic
considering the size of the US ad and media industries.


Trouble is that outside of SE Asia most Muslim countries
have government controlled media. Its hard to get the message
across when people have no access to the channels of communication.


When the Marines surrendered in Falluja, I decided then and there, that
the Bush regime had failed us, and I will no longer vote for them. The
war
is lost, and we might as well let France dictate the next era.

The Marines don't appear to be in a surrendering mood these
past few days. I also wondered about the previous cease-fire, but it
appears to have been a "biding time" play by al-Sadr's militia. I
doubt there will be a second cease-fire.


Agreed and the Iraqis themselves seem now to have lost patience
with al-Sadr

Keith

Vince Brannigan wrote:

That's quite a statement and I would really like to have you elaborate on
the statement. If it is imperialism , it is only in the broadest sense
that
the US was extending it's influence into Iraq. It's difficult to think of
that as being bad for anyone given the nature of the Saddam regime. Were
the Balkan's intervention also imperialism?


The difference is UN support

The U.N. *did not* support Operation ALLIED FORCE in 1999. Do you think that
was imperialism?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

John Kunkel wrote:

So, only 150 total
non-combatants killed in all the B-52 raids during the entire Vietnam
conflict? OK. Sure.

Actually, I stand corrected. There are a total of only 275 documented civilian
deaths from B-52 strikes. This from "The 11 Days of Christmas" by Marshal L.
Michel;

"Tragically bombs from one of the downed B-52s fell on the Bach Mai hospital,
causing considerable damage....." (p.173)

"The Bach Mai hospital bombing killed twenty-five members of the staff,
including fifteen nurses." (p.173)

"An errant string of bombs fell on Kham Thein Street, a civilian shopping
district, and killed over 250 civilians." (p.202)

And this is the main reason why the U.S. doesn't intentionally hit civilians;

"By killing so many people on Kham Thein Street the Americans united everyone
behind their government" (p.202)

So there you go, 275 documented and because of the remote areas hit in Arc
Light missions, I'll stick to my initial claim of 100 for a total of 375. How
many thousands have been pulled from mass graves in Iraq?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

From: Vince Brannigan
Date: 8/11/2004 7:04 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:



Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...

1000 dead americans and allies in iraq and not a single WMD is failure



Not a single WMD has been found? What's so bad about extraordinarily light
casualties?



no, not a single WMD has been found. and,

Really? Then explain the sarin filled shells found by the Poles 2 months ago.
Explain the sarin filled artillery shell found by the U.S. military as part of
a roadside IED.

Granted a few shells doesn't amount to much, but Saddam told the U.N. there
were none. It is highly probable he didn't know about those.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

US *

Any chance this is Kramer in disguise?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
US *

Any chance this is Kramer in disguise?


I don't think so, Kramer has never shown an aversion to making a fool of
himself so I don't think he'd bother posting under another name. It's a new
loon entirely.

From: (ZZBunker)
Date: 8/12/2004 12:54 AM Central Daylight Time

snip

That doesn't, since the British already proved it doesn't work
about 500 years ago.

Which is why today in the US, Florida and the
Mafia are still the only two states that
have no state taxes.

All U.S. states have all kinds of taxes. Florida is no exception.

If you mean state income taxes Florida isn't the only one that doesn't. We
don't need it since assorted hotel and motel taxes are paid by the tourists.

In any event, what does this have to do with military aviation?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired