Flight Following question

A Lieberma wrote:

Newps wrote in
:


You're wrong. Do it as he says and I get a strip printed for me.
That is the exact procedure I use when I enter a flight plan into the
system for a pilot. There's no IFR/VFR box to check so the altitude
information is the only way the computer knows if you are IFR or
getting VFR flight following.


Please see the FAA flight plan form the pilot completes. See box 1. type.

It's either VFR ir IFR.

If I check IFR on 1.type of the FAA flight plan, I get a center control
number that is filed into the ATC system via DUATS.

Irrelavant what you receive. Checking IFR doesn't make you IFR.
"Cleared to...." makes you IFR.



I DO NOT get a center control number when I FILE VFR. I get a remark the
plan is forwarded to the servicing FSS.


Right.




Maybe FSS forwards something to you when I file through FSS, but when I
file via DUATS, it's a very distinct difference on the electronic response.


FSS doesn't forward VFR flightplans.





There may not be any IFR / VFR box on your end, but there sure is on the
pilot's end filing the plan.


I understand that. It's a routing issue. Perhaps DUAT doesn't allow
you to file VFR/125 as your altitude on your IFR flightplan. That is a
limitation written into the computer program, not anything from FAA.




I also notice that the website Flight Aware NEVER picks up my VFR flight
plan filings, where as when I file IFR, it shows scheduled one hour before,
so I know there is some meat to my theory in that VFR selection on the FAA
flight plan does not get passed on to the ATC system.


If you can file a plan as I stated above and see if it shows up in the
proposed list.

On 12/10/2006 11:45 AM, Newps wrote the following:


Mitty wrote:



To do this, I think my local ground control guy (KMIC) has to
telephone the KMSP TRACON for the code. Maybe the call goes to a desk
rather than to a possibly-busy controller where there could be a
workload issue?

It depends. Does MIC have a DBRITE? If so then they more than likely
will have something set up with MSP so MIC can get their own codes so a
call doesn't have to be made.


Yes, they have a DBRITE. Once in a while I get a code instantly, but usually
(90%) I get "code on request" and they come back with it in a couple of minutes.
For an IFR departure, I always get "clearance on request." and a short wait.
I have assumed that was to get the code as the tower should have the IFR flight
strip already, right?



One time out of Ames, IA talking to the Des Moines TRACON I got a
local code (0xxx). When I was leveled out I asked the TRACON
controller "Can you give me a code that will get me to Minneapolis?"
Got a "stand by" and in a couple of minutes he called back and gave me
the code. At the appropriate time he then handed me off to Center, no
problem.

He didn't call MSP, he simply input a VFR flight plan into the FDIO
which spit out a center code.

I didn't think he called MSP for the code but I didn't know how he got it. I
assumed there was some kind of "give me the next available code" button at his
position.

Newps wrote in
:

I understand that. It's a routing issue. Perhaps DUAT doesn't allow
you to file VFR/125 as your altitude on your IFR flightplan. That is
a limitation written into the computer program, not anything from FAA.

You are pretty much reiterating what I am trying to say.....

You don't receive VFR flight plans when WE FILE THEM. You only receive
IFR flight plans. (your words above as well!)

Now, with that in mind, the system is "fudged" to receive a VFR flight
plan, by us (pilots) selecting IFR to generate a strip.

No matter what happens on your end, it's FILED as an IFR flight plan.

And yes, until I accept the clearance, it's nothing more then a strip of
paper on your end, and when you see VFR altitude on your end, you revise
that filing to a VFR flight, and I call in to activate the flight plan.

Notice I am saying activate, and not accept a clearance as I fully
understand you don't "clear to" VFR flight plans.

It may be a matter of semantics, but in order for you to receive a strip,
an IFR flight plan has to be filed, thus the deliniation of type in box 1
for routing purposes.

What you do with it on the other end (ATC) is a totally different issue.

I just see this as fudging the system to force a way of flight following,
which in my opinion IS NOT a bad thing, just another way of working the
system.

Of course the pilot would need to know what he is doing would be accepted
as a workload permitted basis and not expect it to work every time.

Allen

On 2006-12-10, Jim Carter wrote:



Do you have any quick references for that Milen? I've never heard of an
IFR flight plan with "VFR" in the enroute altitude box. Or are you
referring to filing VFR-on-top? If so, that's a lot different than just
requesting flight following for VFR flights.

No, I'm not referring to VFR-on-top, that would be OTP or OTP/altitude in
the altitude box.

A quick copy/paste from DUATS: (go to file domestic, click on Cruising altitude)

You may also use one of the following additional formats:

* OTP (for an IFR flight operating VFR on top)
* OTP followed by a slash and a 2 or 3 digit number (i.e., OTP/120)
* ABV followed by a slash and a 2 or 3 digit number (i.e., ABV/120)
* VFR (for a VFR flight, no specified altitude)
* VFR followed by a slash and a 2 or 3 digit number (i.e., VFR/125)
* A block altitude may be entered using a low limit 2 or 3 digit number
followed by a B, followed by a high limit 2 or 3 digit number. The low limit
must be lower than the high limit. For example, enter 120B160 for 12,000
through 16,000 feet.

-Milen

-----Original Message-----
From: Newps ]
Posted At: Sunday, December 10, 2006 10:02 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flight Following question
Subject: Flight Following question



Jim Carter wrote:



I'm typically used to calling CD only for special VFR or IFR
clearances.
I found it unusual for a VFR CD requirement, especially when the
same
voice seems to answer both CD and GND.

If it's the same guy it doesn't matter what frequncy you use.

I'd agree with you if I hadn't been admonished for not using CD first. I
switched to CD and the voice sounded familiar so I even asked: "didn't I
just talk to you over on GND?"

The answer: "yes, but we needed to get you on this tape". Now whether
that is true or not, it doesn't seem to me to be in the best interest of
everyone involved. It seems to me to be essentially doubling the number
of radio calls that GND / CD have to handle -- i.e. inflating their
numbers.

-----Original Message-----
From: Newps ]
Posted At: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:59 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flight Following question
Subject: Flight Following question



....
What he meant was to file an IFR flight plan except to put VFR as the
altitude. That would generate a strip just like an IFR aircraft but
when you put that transponder code in the data block on the radar
scope
shows you as a VFR aircraft.

That's pretty cool. So if I understand correctly now, I can file an IFR
flight plan, but specify the enroute altitude as VFR/065 (6500') and
that will generate a strip. Can I then call CD and pick up an IFR
clearance to VFR enroute with flight following?

Since I'm still an analog guy in a digital world and like to talk to the
FSS guys on the phone (makes 'em feel needed don't ya know), I've been
filing with them. Do you think they will understand how to take this
type of flight plan?

Mitty wrote:


Yes, they have a DBRITE. Once in a while I get a code instantly, but
usually (90%) I get "code on request" and they come back with it in a
couple of minutes. For an IFR departure, I always get "clearance on
request." and a short wait. I have assumed that was to get the code as
the tower should have the IFR flight strip already, right?

No, not always. Sounds like the have to call MSP to get their codes and
clearances.

Jim Carter wrote:


The answer: "yes, but we needed to get you on this tape".


There's one tape. There's a number of different channels but only one
tape. He was bull****ting you.





Now whether
that is true or not, it doesn't seem to me to be in the best interest of
everyone involved. It seems to me to be essentially doubling the number
of radio calls that GND / CD have to handle -- i.e. inflating their
numbers.

What happens on CD/GC has no affect whatsoever on their traffic count.

Jim Carter wrote:



That's pretty cool. So if I understand correctly now, I can file an IFR
flight plan, but specify the enroute altitude as VFR/065 (6500') and
that will generate a strip. Can I then call CD and pick up an IFR
clearance to VFR enroute with flight following?


Just file a regular IFR and pick it up how you normally do. When you
get to the point you want to be VFR tell the controller you want to
cancel and receive FF.

-----Original Message-----
From: Newps ]
Posted At: Sunday, December 10, 2006 6:37 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flight Following question
Subject: Flight Following question

....
Just file a regular IFR and pick it up how you normally do. When you
get to the point you want to be VFR tell the controller you want to
cancel and receive FF.

Duh!! That makes perfect sense; I don't know why I was following the VFR
altitude for IFR plan thread. Of course that prompts another question:
if its that easy to get FF then why bother with the IFR / VFR finagle to
start with? Why not just do as you suggest and file IFR with the
intention of cancelling over to FF after departure?

It can't be that we've got non-instrument rated pilots filing IFR plans
can it?