Procedure for calculating weight and balance

Newps writes:

All it does is relieve the pressure. If there were no trim at all the
elevator would be in the exact same position, it would just suck to have
to hold it there.

That's just it: If there were no trim at all, the elevator wouldn't
be there. It would be in its neutral position. Of course you can
_push_ it there, but with trim set, it goes there and stays there
without being pushed (by you).

--
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Kev writes:

I just don't understand why CH Products or anyone else has not come out
with a force feedback yoke and a good driver. They'd sell a ton to
pilots.

It's already overpriced; I shudder to think what it would cost with
force feedback.

And several sources I've read say that incorrect feedback is worse
than none at all. And since different aircraft "feel" different, it
would be hard to calibrate the yoke for each aircraft (MSFS wouldn't
do it).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Anno,

NB that I'm not saying that this position is necessarily marked anywhere,
nor that it is relevant to actually flying the plane.


Ok, we're on the same page then.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

It is slightly relevant.

Both of these potential problems can be avoided by keeping a strong
awareness of the trim state of the aircraft. As long as you keep in
mind that you've applied x trim while flying, you should be fine.


How would you know? You're ridiculous!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Newps writes:

In the types of planes we're talking about here the autopilot doesn't
actuate the trim.

I'm talking about all types of planes. Not everyone flies a tin can.

You only refer to exceptions to justify your errors in understanding. For
example, if you were genuinely concerned about "control authority", you
would have studied weight & balance long ago, as that *will* affect your
control authority in *any airplane*, whereas trim *will not* affect your
control authority *in any airplane*.

Neil

Recently, Kev posted:

Neil Gould wrote:
You are presenting yet another absurd scenario that has no relation
to the reality of flying. Nobody flying a real plane will "forget"
about trim set near the limits of it's travel, because the control
forces are a constant reminder.

Umm. Nobody *hand* flying should in theory forget about trim setting.
(We all know the problems that can be caused by autopilots or FBW
systems mucking with the trim behind a pilot's back ;-)

When trim is changed, the flight condition changes. There are many clues
about trim settings that the conscious pilot can note, especially when the
trim is set near the limits of its travel. It really doesn't matter
whether the aircraft is FBW, autopilot, or hand-flown.

Of course, sometimes pilots *do* forget... thus the number of take-off
accidents caused by the trim being in the wrong place.

This is a matter of making an error in the pre-flight checklist. It has
nothing to do with the mechanics of trim.

Neil

Mxsmanic,

It would be in its neutral position.


Jeeze, you really don't want to understand, do you? There is no
"neutral position".

The position that keeps the plane flying at a certain speed is
depending on load, cg and a lot of other factors. It varies with all
those - and with the speed you want to fly. The position desired by the
pilot can be held by the pilot - OR he can use trim to have the
elevator stay in the desired position, to relieve himself of the
control force otherwise required. If you fly a cruise speed of 150
knots in a Baron, you'd still have different elevator positions
depending on CG location. In fact, the position would change during the
flight with fuel burn. Which would be "neutral"? "Neutral" doesn't make
any sense.

Where the elevator actually is in a desired attitude, is completely
irrelevant with regard to control of the airplane - once you've adhered
to the limits of all contributing factors with regard to certification.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Newps wrote:
Kev wrote:
Of course, sometimes pilots *do* forget... thus the number of take-off
accidents caused by the trim being in the wrong place. Yes, at the
last second they feel the extra control force coming in, but it's too
late.

Maybe in jets or King Air's but not spam cans.

Unclear. What are you claiming doesn't happen in small planes? No
out-of-trim takeoff accidents? Obviously that's incorrect. That
pilots notice the mistake in time to prevent the accident? Also
obviously not the case. That jets can't feel control forces?

Heck, think of all the times a pilot tries to take off with the
control-locks in place. If they realized what was happening in time
(and took action), there'd be no such accidents.

Kev

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Kev posted:
Neil Gould wrote:
When trim is changed, the flight condition changes. There are many clues
about trim settings that the conscious pilot can note, especially when the
trim is set near the limits of its travel. It really doesn't matter
whether the aircraft is FBW, autopilot, or hand-flown.

Total agreement that it's noticeable when hand-flying. As for
autopilot, conditions such as tail-plane icing have caused famous
accidents because the pilots didn't realize where the trim had moved
to. But okay, perhaps they weren't concious enough.

Of course, sometimes pilots *do* forget... thus the number of take-off
accidents caused by the trim being in the wrong place.

This is a matter of making an error in the pre-flight checklist. It has
nothing to do with the mechanics of trim.

Agreed, but my point is that it's difficult to make a one-size-fits-all
statement that pilots would never forget, or not notice an out-of-trim
condition.

Regards, Kev

Morgans wrote:
Are you sure you want to be answering this putz? I beg of you; reconsider.

Jim, some friends were reading this thread, and brought up a question.

If you really believe that not answering Mx is a Good Thing, then why
aren't you trying to get the prolific writers like TxSrv, BT, and
Thomas to stop answering him? Without their dozens of responses,
there'd be a lot fewer postings in his threads. I mean, a LOT. All
they do is give him more to reply to.

Is it because you think it's okay to waste everyone's time bashing him?
That seems pretty counter-productive. It doesn't make him go away.

Thanks,
Kev