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#11
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 8:33*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:19*pm, Cookie wrote: On Aug 22, 9:44*am, JJ Sinclair wrote: OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents? JJ Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have already happened......unless I get a time machine. But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those errors. *Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility. So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low pass" incident. Solution: Don't do low passes! JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100% accident free due to low passes..... If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version if you wish. *Or we *can move on the another incident... Cookie Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this? Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport. The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill ourself. Ramy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with some degree of intellegence and common sense. Cookie |
#12
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 5:50*pm, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:33*pm, Ramy wrote: On Aug 22, 5:19*pm, Cookie wrote: On Aug 22, 9:44*am, JJ Sinclair wrote: OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents? JJ Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have already happened......unless I get a time machine. But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those errors. *Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility. So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low pass" incident. Solution: Don't do low passes! JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100% accident free due to low passes..... If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version if you wish. *Or we *can move on the another incident... Cookie Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this? Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport. The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill ourself. Ramy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with some degree of intellegence and common sense. Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, I need a reminder of what can go wrong (such as missinterpreting tow plane signal), and so do most people, but espcially those who dont read RAS, don't subscribe to any discussion group, live under a rock as far as what is going on in the soaring world, and all they know about soaring is what their instructor tell them and maybe what they read in the soaring magazine. Many of them truely believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport, so what could possibly go wrong? I know many such pilots, and I admit I was one of them when I started soaring way back then. I was truely shocked the first time I heard about a fatality. Ramy |
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SAFETY ALERT
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#14
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SAFETY ALERT
On 8/22/2011 5:50 PM, Cookie wrote:
- Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". It's not obvious to me the low pass was the cause of the Idaho fatality, and given the cursory investigation the FAA can afford, we might never know. Was it * a medical problem * a mechanical failure * hypoxia * malfunctioning airspeed indicator * pilot incompetence with pattern turns I'm sure others can think of more factors that would have led to spinning in, even if the pilot did not do a low pass beforehand. And that is part of the problem with the SSA coming out with "generic" advice immediately after an accident: it may completely miss the cause, and lull us into an unfounded complacency. Cookie and others suggest "Don't do low passes", but that's generic advice not yet supported by this accident. That advice can stand on it's own without this accident. We should still strive to understand this accident, though it will be difficult, instead of assuming it was just a botched low pass. We can't do a full investigation ourselves, but we can at least consider those factors I mentioned. Can we rule out a medical problem? Will someone inspect the glider for mechanical malfunction? Did he have oxygen left in the tank, a functioning delivery system, an oximeter, experience in using oxygen? Is the airspeed system potentially over-reading? Could he always fly a good pattern, or did he over-rudder/under-bank at times? Was his glider (HIS glider, not BG's in general) well tested and benign (no surprises) in it's handling? There are many ways for things to go wrong, and even after 35 years of "trying", I still - more infrequently now - discover new ones. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz |
#15
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SAFETY ALERT
On 8/22/2011 7:50 PM, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:33 pm, wrote: On Aug 22, 5:19 pm, wrote: On Aug 22, 9:44 am, JJ wrote: OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents? JJ Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have already happened......unless I get a time machine. But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those errors. Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility. So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low pass" incident. Solution: Don't do low passes! JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100% accident free due to low passes..... If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version if you wish. Or we can move on the another incident... Cookie Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this? Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport. The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill ourself. Ramy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with some degree of intellegence and common sense. Cookie Obviously some us are not properly trained or don't have a certain degree of intelligence or common sense. Some of these people might see the light with a timely reminder. Many won't. Also some fellow club members might wake up to the fact that one of these days one of these stunts is going to involve an innocent bystander. A reminder might motivate them to speak up and establish some local common sense. It might not help, but how can reminding people of the obvious hurt? -- Mike Schumann |
#16
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 10:04*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote: On 8/22/2011 7:50 PM, Cookie wrote: On Aug 22, 8:33 pm, *wrote: On Aug 22, 5:19 pm, *wrote: On Aug 22, 9:44 am, JJ *wrote: OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents? JJ Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have already happened......unless I get a time machine. But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those errors. *Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility. So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low pass" incident. Solution: Don't do low passes! JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100% accident free due to low passes..... If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version if you wish. *Or we *can move on the another incident... Cookie Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this? Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport. The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill ourself. Ramy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with some degree of intellegence and common sense. Cookie Obviously some us are not properly trained or don't have a certain degree of intelligence or common sense. *Some of these people might see the light with a timely reminder. *Many won't. Also some fellow club members might wake up to the fact that one of these days one of these stunts is going to involve an innocent bystander. *A reminder might motivate them to speak up and establish some local common sense. It might not help, but how can reminding people of the obvious hurt? -- Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Mike, If there are that many stupid people out there flying (and I am starting to think there are)..accident rates will not get better. I think statistics show that accident rates for glider have been fairly constant in the long run, with some good years and some bad years. I "remind" myself...every time I fly, and even when I'm not flying. If others need reminding, of the blatently obvious...OK remind them. But my objection is to the knee jerk reaction to a fatality, and then placing the blame other then where it belongs.... "If only the SSA would have released a safety bulletin then joe pilot would not be dead" Every club I know of has a "safety officer"...every club has "safety meetings"...every club I know of has a "safety' section at the club meetings....every instructor I know has a #1 concern for safety...every gliding textbook I have ever read deals with safety to some degree....every flight review is centered on safety....every field check out is safety oriented....every prospective new club member is examined as to safety....the SAA has published a safety column as long as I can remember....NTSB publishes accident reports...any number of pilot publications have an accident report section and numerous safety articles....numerous books have been published dealing specifically with soaring safety and accident prevention......etc. OK, so now we need "safety alerts"...go for it ...you're right it couldn't hurt..........but will it address the problem? I dunno! Cookie |
#17
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 10:02*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:50 PM, Cookie wrote: - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". It's not obvious to me the low pass was the cause of the Idaho fatality, and given the cursory investigation the FAA can afford, we might never know. Was it * a medical problem * a mechanical failure * hypoxia * malfunctioning airspeed indicator * pilot incompetence with pattern turns I'm sure others can think of more factors that would have led to spinning in, even if the pilot did not do a low pass beforehand. And that is part of the problem with the SSA coming out with "generic" advice immediately after an accident: it may completely miss the cause, and lull us into an unfounded complacency. Cookie and others suggest "Don't do low passes", but that's generic advice not yet supported by this accident. That advice can stand on it's own without this accident. We should still strive to understand this accident, though it will be difficult, instead of assuming it was just a botched low pass. We can't do a full investigation ourselves, but we can at least consider those factors I mentioned. Can we rule out a medical problem? Will someone inspect the glider for mechanical malfunction? Did he have oxygen left in the tank, a functioning delivery system, an oximeter, experience in using oxygen? Is the airspeed system potentially over-reading? Could he always fly a good pattern, or did he over-rudder/under-bank at times? Was his glider (HIS glider, not BG's in general) well tested and benign (no surprises) in it's handling? There are many ways for things to go wrong, and even after 35 years of "trying", I still - more infrequently now - discover new ones. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz Eric, I am not trying to say what actually happened in any of these recent accidents...we are just talking about accidents in general..that there are certain categories of accident that seem to repete...and how to help prevent them. * a medical problem * a mechanical failure * hypoxia * malfunctioning airspeed indicator * pilot incompetence with pattern turns You give 5 possible potential "causes" for accidents......we can easily address each...and figure out how each of us could improve our odds, or prevent the accidents caused by them. I'm going to start with "malfunctioning airspeed indicator"........A glider pilot should be able to fly safely without reference to an airspeed indicator.......I can think of no accident where the cause should be a malfunctioning airspeed indicator..airspeed indicator does not seem to be a factor in any of the recent accidents. Mechanical failure is very very rare..(unless caused by improper flying)...annual inspections, 100 hour inspections and preflight inspections insure us against mechanical failure.....the onus falls on the PIC to insure the aircraft is airworthy. I don't see where mechanical failure enters into any of the recent accidents. Hypoxia is a good one.........we all should have received some degree of training about hypoxia, its symptoms, and effects. Many of us fly where this is seldon a concern..others use O2 on a regular basis and better be proficient on this topic. Again...don't see this relating to any of the recent accidents... Medical problems.....we supposedly "self certify" and are required to not fly during peroids of medical defeciency...does everybody do this? Lastly pilot incompetence...........BINGO! That's the one! I see this in accident after accident! Cookie |
#18
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SAFETY ALERT
On 8/22/2011 7:48 PM, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 22, 10:02 pm, Eric wrote: On 8/22/2011 5:50 PM, Cookie wrote: - Show quoted text - Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are dangerous? So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA, NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that". It's not obvious to me the low pass was the cause of the Idaho fatality, and given the cursory investigation the FAA can afford, we might never know. Was it * a medical problem * a mechanical failure * hypoxia * malfunctioning airspeed indicator * pilot incompetence with pattern turns I'm sure others can think of more factors that would have led to spinning in, even if the pilot did not do a low pass beforehand. And that is part of the problem with the SSA coming out with "generic" advice immediately after an accident: it may completely miss the cause, and lull us into an unfounded complacency. Cookie and others suggest "Don't do low passes", but that's generic advice not yet supported by this accident. That advice can stand on it's own without this accident. We should still strive to understand this accident, though it will be difficult, instead of assuming it was just a botched low pass. We can't do a full investigation ourselves, but we can at least consider those factors I mentioned. Can we rule out a medical problem? Will someone inspect the glider for mechanical malfunction? Did he have oxygen left in the tank, a functioning delivery system, an oximeter, experience in using oxygen? Is the airspeed system potentially over-reading? Could he always fly a good pattern, or did he over-rudder/under-bank at times? Was his glider (HIS glider, not BG's in general) well tested and benign (no surprises) in it's handling? There are many ways for things to go wrong, and even after 35 years of "trying", I still - more infrequently now - discover new ones. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz Eric, I am not trying to say what actually happened in any of these recent accidents...we are just talking about accidents in general..that there are certain categories of accident that seem to repete...and how to help prevent them. * a medical problem * a mechanical failure * hypoxia * malfunctioning airspeed indicator * pilot incompetence with pattern turns You give 5 possible potential "causes" for accidents......we can easily address each...and figure out how each of us could improve our odds, or prevent the accidents caused by them. I'm going to start with "malfunctioning airspeed indicator"........A glider pilot should be able to fly safely without reference to an airspeed indicator.......I can think of no accident where the cause should be a malfunctioning airspeed indicator..airspeed indicator does not seem to be a factor in any of the recent accidents. The pilot flies through virga; water enters the airspeed system, causing it to over-read as he pulls up from his low pass. As he waits for the airspeed to bleed off to pattern speed while pointed up at 20 degrees, the glider stalls and spins. This was my first thought, because I recently had a virga induced airspeed error - my very first, despite flying through virga and rain several times a year over 35 years of glider flying. It took me at least a minute to realize I had a problem, and even longer to decide it was water from the virga. Mechanical failure is very very rare..(unless caused by improper flying)...annual inspections, 100 hour inspections and preflight inspections insure us against mechanical failure.....the onus falls on the PIC to insure the aircraft is airworthy. I don't see where mechanical failure enters into any of the recent accidents. A control rod jams when you try to put the nose down, stall, spin - It's not something even a person watching on the ground would see, much less trying to dissect the cause remotely after the fact. I had a control rod break in the club Blanik that was not inspectable by the PIC. We got down safely. If we'd spun in, would inspecting the wreck have found that? Maybe, maybe not. It happens. Hypoxia is a good one.........we all should have received some degree of training about hypoxia, its symptoms, and effects. Many of us fly where this is seldon a concern..others use O2 on a regular basis and better be proficient on this topic. Again...don't see this relating to any of the recent accidents... King Mountain Glider Park (the Idaho fatality location) is at 5500'; cloud base on a good day can be 20,000'; 16,000' to 18,000' is normal for August. We don't know how high he was or for how long, how well his oxygen system worked, what his pulmonary condition was, and if he monitored it. Medical problems.....we supposedly "self certify" and are required to not fly during peroids of medical defeciency...does everybody do this? We're not always aware of our medical deficiencies, or may misjudge their effect. Lastly pilot incompetence...........BINGO! That's the one! I see this in accident after accident! But it shouldn't become a prejudice, or we won't learn from an accident. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#19
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 10:32*pm, Cookie wrote:
OK, *so *now we need "safety alerts"...go for it ...you're right it couldn't hurt..........but will it address the problem? *I dunno! You know the answer as well as I do. I started writing up "Safety Alerts" for the wrecks I've seen the aftermath of in the last ten years and it read like it belonged in the Onion. I'm lucky. None of these have been fatal. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#20
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SAFETY ALERT
On Aug 22, 7:59*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote: On 8/21/2011 4:15 PM, wrote: Personally I want the SSA lobbying against rules not making up new ones or reminding me of old ones. * When advocacy organizations become governing/safetycratic they are ruined, worse than useless. *Let the SSA keep the gov't at bay, pilots, clubs, and insurance companies can sort the safety standards. I don't see a whole lot of lobbying going on either. *For whatever reason, there seems to be ZERO interest at the SSA to involve new people in the organization who have new ideas and are volunteering to help out. Another example of a HUGE problem. -- Mike Schumann I have to strongly disagree on all points. The SSA welcomes volunteers - there just aren't many of them. The SSA has successfully lobbied for numerous FAR changes - expanding the use of tow pilots with a private rating is just the most recent. Before that there was the extension of parachute repack to 180 days. The SSA cares very much about what is happening to members. Bill Daniels SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman. |
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