Round out and flare with fully open spoilers in a PW-6? Other gliders?

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 7:47:36 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
The PW-6 has very effective spoilers, and some other gliders have even more effective spoilers. Assuming C.G. is within limits and runway is level, is it possible to round out and flare with the spoilers fully open? Does one need extra airspeed? How much extra? (Yep. I know it is advisable to reduce spoilers before entering roundout.)

How do you teach steep descent to students? How steep? How fast?

I saw this question come up in a discussion of a fatal accident in a SZD 51-1 Junior. Student pilot opened 'full spoilers' and failed to flare.

Is a 'full spoiler flare' required to obtain glider certification in EASA?

And finally, does the PW-6 have spoilers or airbrakes?


Charlie , you hit the nail on the head! I also has a 20A L, that I would make some very short landings and my best friend Alfonso, AKA E9 would applaud me for my sticking to his approach to landing scenario. Trust me, no one did it better than the Fonzie! One better be prepared for what will certainly someday happen, and the best rule of logical thinking is that if you think it might happen, it probably will. Practice doesn't make perfect as we have all been told, but perfect practice results in perfect results. Bob

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 7:47:36 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
The PW-6 has very effective spoilers, and some other gliders have even more effective spoilers. Assuming C.G. is within limits and runway is level, is it possible to round out and flare with the spoilers fully open? Does one need extra airspeed? How much extra? (Yep. I know it is advisable to reduce spoilers before entering roundout.)

How do you teach steep descent to students? How steep? How fast?

I saw this question come up in a discussion of a fatal accident in a SZD 51-1 Junior. Student pilot opened 'full spoilers' and failed to flare.

Is a 'full spoiler flare' required to obtain glider certification in EASA?

And finally, does the PW-6 have spoilers or airbrakes?

Dan, the wall was very high, looked like they wanted people to stay, but I was inside the wall and wanted to get out! The cop was a real Barney type, looked like he came straight from Newberry except he must have stopped at every donut shop in Arcadia. Only think he was most concerned about was my drivers license. It was a great approach, just over the fence and into the inmate ballpark. They came with their guns drawn and sirens sounding, you would have thought that I would have planned some sort of prison break. I even asked the cop how many inmates do you have to help me take this thing apart? It was the end of an interesting day. Bob

I think the OP has got the terms wrong. I don't think you Flare a glider into a landing. I think you roundout and then just hold it off until it lands itself.
I think Flaring is something you do in a C-172. Or most power airplane. If you try and flare a glider your likely to hit the tailboom hard and / or pound in. Tailboom first landings are the way the euro's try and land, but Flaring? I don't think so.
Am I wrong?
I think any pilot going XC should be able to spot land his glider with full Spoilers out and flaps too if you have them.
I don't know of any glider that can't be landed with everything hanging out to the max but I'm sure someone here will correct me on that point. My ASW20 was and my LS3a is, easy to land with everything out to the max. It is good to practice this a couple of times a year in good conditions thou.

I think "flare" and "round out" are exactly the same thing .. a change in
attitude to enable a low-energy landing. Powered or glider makes no
difference. That's how it works here downunder anyway!

At 23:49 27 March 2018, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I think the OP has got the terms wrong. I don't think you Flare a glider
in=
to a landing. I think you roundout and then just hold it off until it
land=
s itself.
I think Flaring is something you do in a C-172. Or most power airplane.
If
=
you try and flare a glider your likely to hit the tailboom hard and / or
po=
und in. Tailboom first landings are the way the euro's try and land, but
Fl=
aring? I don't think so.
Am I wrong?
I think any pilot going XC should be able to spot land his glider with
full=
Spoilers out and flaps too if you have them.
I don't know of any glider that can't be landed with everything hanging
out=
to the max but I'm sure someone here will correct me on that point. My
ASW=
20 was and my LS3a is, easy to land with everything out to the max. It
is
=
good to practice this a couple of times a year in good conditions thou.

And the corollary is true... if you try to reduce flaps/airbrakes near
the ground on many gliders, you'll get an unpleasant surprise.

On my Mini Nimbus for example, full flap & airbrake approaches are
recommended, but don't try closing the airbrakes "a little" near the
ground -- all that does is keep the trailing edge airbrakes open but
reduce flap, which can get exciting.

At 23:49 27 March 2018, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I think the OP has got the terms wrong. I don't think you Flare a
glider
in=
to a landing. I think you roundout and then just hold it off until it
land=
s itself.
I think Flaring is something you do in a C-172. Or most power
airplane. If
=
you try and flare a glider your likely to hit the tailboom hard and /
or
po=
und in. Tailboom first landings are the way the euro's try and land,
but
Fl=
aring? I don't think so.
Am I wrong?
I think any pilot going XC should be able to spot land his glider
with
full=
Spoilers out and flaps too if you have them.
I don't know of any glider that can't be landed with everything
hanging
out=
to the max but I'm sure someone here will correct me on that
point. My
ASW=
20 was and my LS3a is, easy to land with everything out to the
max. It is
=
good to practice this a couple of times a year in good conditions
thou.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 12:00:05 AM UTC-7, Richard McLean wrote:
I think "flare" and "round out" are exactly the same thing .. a change in
attitude to enable a low-energy landing. Powered or glider makes no
difference. That's how it works here downunder anyway!

At 23:49 27 March 2018, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I think the OP has got the terms wrong. I don't think you Flare a glider
in=
to a landing. I think you roundout and then just hold it off until it
land=
s itself.
I think Flaring is something you do in a C-172. Or most power airplane.
If
=
you try and flare a glider your likely to hit the tailboom hard and / or
po=
und in. Tailboom first landings are the way the euro's try and land, but
Fl=
aring? I don't think so.
Am I wrong?
I think any pilot going XC should be able to spot land his glider with
full=
Spoilers out and flaps too if you have them.
I don't know of any glider that can't be landed with everything hanging
out=
to the max but I'm sure someone here will correct me on that point. My
ASW=
20 was and my LS3a is, easy to land with everything out to the max. It
is
=
good to practice this a couple of times a year in good conditions thou.



This is mostly a matter of terminology I guess. For me, "flair" is something I do in tricycle gear power aircraft to raise the aircraft's nose a bit to avoid having the nose wheel contact the ground on touch down. This is not what I do in landing a glider. I "round-out" ( progressively transition from final approach to the "hold-off" and let the glider land itself. When I have goofed this up (frequently) and raised the glider's nose too high ("flair" in my lingo) the glider touched down tail wheel first. Hardly a problem if the touchdown is gentle but I can't think of a reason to do it - if the approach airspeed is not too high.

Same maneuver, different names. Flare is more US, Round-out more British, I think. Both mean the same thing - change aircraft attitude from approach to landing; this reduces sink rate and sets up for the specific type of landing touchdown being done: fully-held off low energy (tail and main at same time) or flown on main only (Blanik, Schweizers). Tailwheel airplanes can do 3-point, wheel landings, or one main wheel crosswind landings. And in an F-4 or F-18 you don't even have to bother, just drive it onto the runway (or, as my navy friends used to say back before PC: "Flare to land, squat to pee"). In my LS6 I can get the tail wheel to touch just before the main if really going for min energy; a "one wheel" landing?

And "flair" is how stylishly you accomplish the "flare".

66

At 16:59 28 March 2018, Jim wrote:
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 12:00:05 AM UTC-7, Richard McLean wrote:
I think "flare" and "round out" are exactly the same thing .. a change
in=
=20
attitude to enable a low-energy landing. Powered or glider makes no=20
difference. That's how it works here downunder anyway!
=20
At 23:49 27 March 2018, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I think the OP has got the terms wrong. I don't think you Flare a
glider
in=3D
to a landing. I think you roundout and then just hold it off until it
land=3D
s itself.
I think Flaring is something you do in a C-172. Or most power
airplane.
If
=3D
you try and flare a glider your likely to hit the tailboom hard and /
or
po=3D
und in. Tailboom first landings are the way the euro's try and land,
but
Fl=3D
aring? I don't think so.
Am I wrong?
I think any pilot going XC should be able to spot land his glider with
full=3D
Spoilers out and flaps too if you have them.
I don't know of any glider that can't be landed with everything
hanging
out=3D
to the max but I'm sure someone here will correct me on that point.
My
ASW=3D
20 was and my LS3a is, easy to land with everything out to the max.
It
is
=3D
good to practice this a couple of times a year in good conditions
thou.



This is mostly a matter of terminology I guess. For me, "flair" is
somethi=
ng I do in tricycle gear power aircraft to raise the aircraft's nose a
bit
=
to avoid having the nose wheel contact the ground on touch down. This is
n=
ot what I do in landing a glider. I "round-out" ( progressively
transition=
from final approach to the "hold-off" and let the glider land itself.
Whe=
n I have goofed this up (frequently) and raised the glider's nose too
high
=
("flair" in my lingo) the glider touched down tail wheel first. Hardly a
p=
roblem if the touchdown is gentle but I can't think of a reason to do it
-
=
if the approach airspeed is not too high.


"Flair" is either a natural aptitude for something or a synonym for
panache.

Flare is rounding out the end of something, think flared trousers or flared
tubing. In our case it refers to the transition from a (relatively) steep
approach path to a brief period of flight parallel to the landing surface.
Whether you land on the mainwheel or both wheels together is irrelevant, &
purely a matter of choice.

One reason for landing on both wheels is that it's virtually impossible to
bounce back into the air again.

Yep, on my iPad, sorta a PITA to multi quote.

Final may be a "high decent rate, followed by varying horizontal movement to remove energy before touchdown".

My first thought, did you stop before some unmoveable object?
Yes?, great.
No?, sucks.

Flare, flair, roundout, WTF........you are transitioning between a potential high decent rate to a horizontal maneuver where you dissapate the remaining energy. Yes, for those of you that do "Queens English", I left out some letters. ;-)
If you have GREAT brakes, this helps.
Energy management is paramount. Even if you have great brakes, they "may" fail when you count on them the most.

Always, keep in mind, "does it look good, does it sound good, does it feel good?". Yep, I know.......I "thought" I had dumped a full load of water in a -20C going into a field.
Found out LATER, we did work on the system, the dump lever didn't go over center, thus, even though I did my bit, I still landed with FULL WATER in a field on the ridge in PA.
It didn't feel right, didn't sound right, I kept a decent speed.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:40:23 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
....

And "flair" is how stylishly you accomplish the "flare".

66

Yes, of course. I can't spell any better than I can land.