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GWB and the Air Guard



 
 
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  #71  
Old February 17th 04, 02:41 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:12 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
Among some folks that I met at fighter lead-in training when I was
instructing were Dino Martin (Dean's son) who was killed flying an F-4
into a mountain in California, and Ross Perot (son of Ross Perot) who
flew F-4s for the TANG.


Ed, when was Martin in LIFT? I saw a documentary recently on his dad, and it
mentioned the son's accident. I had vague memories of it being in the news
when it happened, but found little on the web about his ANG experience. Made
me kind of curious as to his story (not all that many sons of the rich and
famous saw fit to serve in the military during the early eighties). You know
anything more about this?

Brooks


I was at LIFT from July '81 til June of '85. Dino came through in '83
and Perot in '84. Both were good guys with no attitude issues. Each
was fully qualified, no double standard involved.

Martin's accident occured during a radar trail departure in bad
weather out of March AFB (IIRC).


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #72  
Old February 17th 04, 05:26 PM
Mike Marron
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"D. Strang" wrote:
"Ron" wrote:


A C-119 retardant tanker later crashed virtually on the exact site as Martins
F-4C crash.


But about 400 knots slower :-) Dino is pretty much a part of that mountain
now. I think they found his jaw bone, and that's what they gave to his dad.


Two or three years ago a friend of mine went straight into a farmer's
tomato field in a "slow" ultralight. I landed next to the crash site
and ran over to help but he was obviously deceased. His lifeless body
literally conformed to the shape of the wreckage as all his blood had
been drained out of his body and every bone had been shattered
immediately upon impact. His remains appeared as if they had been
painted onto the wreckage. Another friend who had experienced
ground combat in Vietnam showed up and said he's never seen a
human being that mangled up even on the battlefield, Suffice to say,
it was a sight that I hope never to see again in this lifetime...


If you're dead, you're dead; regardless if you auger in at 40 kts. or
400.




  #73  
Old March 15th 04, 01:47 AM
Mary Shafer
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:41:13 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Martin's accident occured during a radar trail departure in bad
weather out of March AFB (IIRC).


George, I think, not March. There were F-4s at George but not at
Marsh. He flew into the side of Mt San Antonio (Baldy) fairly near
the top, as I recall. It took the recovery crews some time to find
the site, I believe, because there had been no witnesses and they had
to wait for the weather to clear.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #74  
Old March 15th 04, 04:27 PM
Ed Rasimus
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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:47:20 -0800, Mary Shafer
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:41:13 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Martin's accident occured during a radar trail departure in bad
weather out of March AFB (IIRC).


George, I think, not March. There were F-4s at George but not at
Marsh. He flew into the side of Mt San Antonio (Baldy) fairly near
the top, as I recall. It took the recovery crews some time to find
the site, I believe, because there had been no witnesses and they had
to wait for the weather to clear.

Mary

Dino was CANG, not USAF. He wasn't flying out of George.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #75  
Old March 17th 04, 12:11 AM
Mary Shafer
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On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:27:16 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:47:20 -0800, Mary Shafer
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:41:13 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Martin's accident occured during a radar trail departure in bad
weather out of March AFB (IIRC).


George, I think, not March. There were F-4s at George but not at
Marsh. He flew into the side of Mt San Antonio (Baldy) fairly near
the top, as I recall. It took the recovery crews some time to find
the site, I believe, because there had been no witnesses and they had
to wait for the weather to clear.

Mary

Dino was CANG, not USAF. He wasn't flying out of George.


I thought so, too, but the March site says he was a Reserve officer,
not CANG. However, I now see that this isn't a .mil site, but a .org
site, so maybe it's not as authoritative as I thought it was.

OK, looking at the IMDB, It was San Gorgonio, not San Antonio. Which
definitely says it wasn't George. That leaves March and CANG as
pretty much the only options, just as you said. I probably got
"George" from "Gorgonio".

Just as an aside, Frank Sinatra's mother was killed when her chartered
bizjet (a Lear, I think) hit the other side of San Gorgonio.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #76  
Old March 17th 04, 01:03 AM
Ed Rasimus
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:11:49 -0800, Mary Shafer
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:27:16 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:


Dino was CANG, not USAF. He wasn't flying out of George.


I thought so, too, but the March site says he was a Reserve officer,
not CANG. However, I now see that this isn't a .mil site, but a .org
site, so maybe it's not as authoritative as I thought it was.


An officer is either "regular" or "reserve". Typically an ANG officer
would be commissioned in the reserve. It's a complicated throw-back
system, and confusing to those who haven't lived under it. There
really isn't any such thing as a National Guard officer--they are a
reserve component. I guess it just helps to confound the political
questions and enhance those who like to posture about GWB not having a
right to wear the nomex.

OK, looking at the IMDB, It was San Gorgonio, not San Antonio. Which
definitely says it wasn't George. That leaves March and CANG as
pretty much the only options, just as you said. I probably got
"George" from "Gorgonio".

Just as an aside, Frank Sinatra's mother was killed when her chartered
bizjet (a Lear, I think) hit the other side of San Gorgonio.


Small world, ain't it.

It might also be noted that John Ryan's son, who got jumped over other
graduates to get him an F-4 slot, killed himself in the airplane, and
Ross Perot's son who got an ANG slot, arguably through political
leverage, was a pretty good airplane driver.

As long as there are people of influence, there will be some
accusations (rightly or wrongly) of favoritism. Some get to places
they shouldn't be and some get there fully qualified.



Mary


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
  #77  
Old March 17th 04, 05:19 AM
Mary Shafer
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:03:44 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Small world, ain't it.


I can see San Gorgonio from my yard here in Palm Desert. I can also
see it from Lancaster on a clear day. The snow helps, of course, but
it won't be around much longer if we keep having days in the mid-80s.

As long as there are people of influence, there will be some
accusations (rightly or wrongly) of favoritism. Some get to places
they shouldn't be and some get there fully qualified.


Tell me about it. I don't know if you ran into this in the military,
but civil servants get a lot of lectures about ethics. One of the big
deals is the _appearance_ of impropriety being just about as bad as
actual impropriety. It's sometimes very difficult. I'm sure that
McCain, for example, found being the son and grandson of admirals
difficult, for example. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #78  
Old March 17th 04, 11:52 AM
Cub Driver
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:03:44 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

I guess it just helps to confound the political
questions and enhance those who like to posture about GWB not having a
right to wear the nomex.


I've noticed the same thing with respect to his having been "ordered"
to do makeup drills. (Which is to say: he got orders.) And also with
respect to having been transferred (presumably involuntarily) to a
"disciplinary" unit in Colorado. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at
www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
 




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