Philosophical question on owning & IFR rating

Bob Miller wrote:

a Garmin 196 do not need regular updating. Update
your handheld 1x per year: $50.

Actually...$35.

CriticalMass wrote:



"current databases are not an IFR requirement". Thankyou. I know. But,
in the off-chance you want to actually USE them, it is. Does the phrase
"legal" ring any bells?

Yes it does and you are wrong. Not all units require a current database.



The "cost I use as an excuse" is the cost to update what I have
installed in my airplane. The cost to keep my Garmin 155XL db current
is MUCH more than the costs to update the VFR only handhelds you quote,
and I'll USE that as a component of my "excuse" - thanks.

The 155 costs $120 for a single update and $285 per year for an update
every 28 days of the entire US.

On 27-Aug-2004, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. I passed a lot of insurance milestones
in my first year of ownership (including getting my instrument rating
and 100 make&model, retract, etc) and my insurance only went down about
10%. It will take years to make back the cost of the IR, but that's not
why I did it!


I think it depends to a large extent on the make/model involved. For simple
airplanes like a C-172, having an IR probably will not have much impact on
insurance rates. But on a complex, high performance plane the savings could
be substantial. This is understandable considering the relative risk: A
VFR-only pilot will be much safer scud-running in marginal VFR conditions in
a 172 than in a Bonanza.

I've been IFR rated for 30 years, but when two pilots who had not quite
finished their UFR training became partners in my Arrow, insurance went up
by about $600/year. Went back down after they got their ratings.

Getting an IR isn't cheap, but unless you fly exclusively in some place like
Arizona or Florida, it is pretty much a necessity for extracting real
transportation value (as opposed to just recreation) from an airplane.
--
-Elliott Drucker

On 27-Aug-2004, (Michael) wrote:

There is a reason that the vast majority of instrument rated private
pilots don't stay instrument current - it's just not very useful.


Oh really? I recently completed a fairly long trip from PAE (Everett, WA)
to the LA area (SMO) and back, with stops in between Four legs, only one of
which would have been possible (or at least safe) without some IFR flying.

Unless you fly exclusively in Arizona or Florida (or similar climates), or
have no real need to adhere to any sort of schedule, VFR-only flying just
cannot provide very reliable or useful transportation.

--
-Elliott Drucker

On 28-Aug-2004, (Jim Rosinski) wrote:

The vacuum pump in my Skyhawk
went belly up just like that a couple years ago while flying VFR. No
warning. No nothing. Just poof.

Yes, that is the nature of a vacuum pump failure. What warning were you
expecting?


The new Cessnas have dual vacuums, which I think is an excellent
safety feature.

In my opinion, a better alternative (and one available for virtually any
airplane) is a standby electric AI. Also, most GPS units provide an "HSI"
functon that will provide a workable backup for a vacuum DG.

--
-Elliott Drucker

In article ,
Bob Noel wrote:

ah, right. Being IFR at night is a big help - very little
worrying about blundering into clouds like you would if
you were only VFR.

I just returned from a day trip to Seattle at night, IFR. Most of the
time I was on top with a full moon. As ATC was vectoring me over SEA
(after departing BFI) they were working a VFR Archer that wanted to make
some kind of transition (I never figured out where they were) and getting
in to trouble with airspace and clouds. I was really glad I had decided
to file...

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

wrote:
[snip]
Getting an IR isn't cheap, but unless you fly exclusively in some
place like
Arizona or Florida, it is pretty much a necessity for extracting real
transportation value (as opposed to just recreation) from an airplane.

Yep. To say, as some have, that the rating is not worth having for most
GA pilots ignores the most important criterion of flying: what do you
use the airplane for? If you use an airplane to travel, how useful is
it if you have to accept regular postponements for weather?

As soon as I got my PP certificate, it became obvious to me that flying
to Houston every year for Thanksgiving and Christmas was going to
*require* me to have the instrument rating. Otherwise, I could expect
to skip some trips or get stuck at Mom's house on occasion.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

wrote:

On 28-Aug-2004, (Jim Rosinski) wrote:


The vacuum pump in my Skyhawk
went belly up just like that a couple years ago while flying VFR. No
warning. No nothing. Just poof.


Yes, that is the nature of a vacuum pump failure. What warning were you
expecting?

Personally, I'd like a sweet voice to say to me "You have 10 hours until
vacuum pump failure," "You have 9 hours until vacuum pump failure," etc.
:-)

I solved the problem by owning a Skylane with a wet pump. Never had a
failure of the pump. I did have a vacuum loss caused by a T fitting
installed as part of the Precise Flight standby system. How ironic...


Matt

CriticalMass wrote in message ...
Bob Miller wrote:
OK, I'll bite again:

Databases: Current databases are not an IFR requirement. If you like
that panel candy 430/530/CNX80, great; but don't use the cost as an
excuse. KNS80 and a Garmin 196 do not need regular updating. Update
your handheld 1x per year: $50.

"current databases are not an IFR requirement". Thankyou. I know.
But, in the off-chance you want to actually USE them, it is. Does the
phrase "legal" ring any bells?

It sounds like you're assuming you need an IFR GPS for approaches.
I'm suggesting using the GPS for backup xc navigation and using
VOR/ADF/RNAV/DME/ILS approaches. Your charts must be up to date and
you need to check for NOTAMS and TFRs before flying. Why does a VFR
GPS need to be updated, and as someone pointed out, keeping them
updated is not all that expensive. I looked up the update cost on the
196 - $35. Have an old panel mounted Trimble GPS useful for slaving
the A/P to. Annual update cost $0.

The "cost I use as an excuse" is the cost to update what I have
installed in my airplane. The cost to keep my Garmin 155XL db current
is MUCH more than the costs to update the VFR only handhelds you quote,
and I'll USE that as a component of my "excuse" - thanks.

Charts: $300 per year from Aircharts

I keep the "Aircharts Atlas" current, in my plane, to stay legal. IFR
currency would entail more cost.

OK, I looked up my Airchart cost from May. Entire US, both VFR
sectional style atlases, all approach plates and all updates. $400.
I assume you could get part of the country for $300. Knowing I am set
for IFR chart legality - priceless.

Plane: $150 every other year for pitot static check. I can check my
backup vacuum prior to T/O.

OK. Good for you. Hope all your stuff keeps working, "prior to T/O".

I'm not sure what the snipe here is about???

What you conveniently choose to overlook in your pie-in-the-sky
"analysis" of the costs to fly IFR is those pesky instrument failures -
when your altimeter fails the biennial test, and you need a
new/overhauled one. Not included in your "$150/yr" test, and it
happens, not infrequently.

I live near and fly around class B's a lot. Having an accurate
altimeter is important to me and not something I consider to be an
incremental cost of IFR capability, so no, I'm not including that.
(However, in 4 years, I've never had anything but the inspection fee)

Overall, $500 per year is a pittance compared to the overhead required
to maintain the plane.

I think I'll depart this discussion given that you've chosen to define
what constitutes a "pittance", which is a relative term.

All the flights kept, time and stress saved knowing that I can launch
in MVFR conditions, can easily pick up IFR on the way....I'll not get
into quantifying that here again. But from a cost standpoint for a
high performance single (Mooney) my costs are something like:

Hangar $1300
Maint $3000
Annual $1500
Insure $1300
Taxes $0
Total $7100

Variable costs are about $50 per hour.
The $400-500 that goes into IFR *is* a pittance to me, and can even be
argued that some of it is not really incremental anyway.

You've assumed what databases I have to keep current, you've assumed my
equipment will continue to pass all the IFR checks, you've assumed what
it costs me to "maintain the plane", and you've made your own assumption
about which charts I'll be using. Too many assumptions for me to take you seriously.

The claim was made that IFR is not practical for light GA SE flying.
Maybe you fly purely for pleasure. It seems you are projecting the
assumptions that are valid for you on others. The reason for my post
is to ensure that anyone who reads this thread sees another side to
the story, namely that it is practical, useful and desirable for many
(maybe not all) situations to maintain the IFR rating.

Bob Miller wrote:

It sounds like you're assuming you need an IFR GPS for approaches.
I'm suggesting using the GPS for backup xc navigation and using
VOR/ADF/RNAV/DME/ILS approaches.

Let's say you have an aircraft with a LORAN, a NAV/COM with glide slope receiver, and
a marker beacon receiver. The radio stack is full, but you have a spare 3.5" hole in
the panel. Would you -

a. Replace the LORAN with an approach certified GPS.
b. Add a NARCO 121 NAV in the round hole.
c. Replace the intercom with an audio panel and MBR and replace the MBR with a NAV
unit or slim NAV/COM.
d. Something else.

As always, money's tight, so I would pick b, though c also is attractive. Your
choice? Panel can be seen at
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...rson/panel.jpg

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.