O&R clarification with remote start

I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

Chris, don't quote me on this but I think what you'd have to do is:

Launch from Home Airport.
Fly 10km south to the Start point.
Fly 250km north to Turnpoint 1.
Fly 250km south to the Finish.
Fly 10km home to land.

--Noel


On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:
I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

The SSA's Badge and Record guide might be a good place to start:
http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf

It appears to me that the finish point needs to be the same as the
start point for an Out and Return Badge or Record flight.

Unless I misunderstood Cindy Brickner in her email to me, what you
described Noel would qualify for both the Diamond 300K O&R goal and
500K task. What Chris described would not qualify for an O&R. His plan
would have two turn points. It could qualify for a 500K Diamond task,
if the takeoff point was the start point.

Charlie

According to section 3 of the FAI sporting code, an "Out and Return"
task is a "CLOSED COURSE" with two legs.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/sc3.pdf

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..



On Jul 29, 2:40*pm, Tony wrote:
The SSA's Badge and Record guide might be a good place to start:http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf

It appears to me that the finish point needs to be the same as the
start point for an Out and Return Badge or Record flight.

On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:
I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

Here "turnpoint 1" is your home airport? Part of the problem may be
you are confusing some of the nomeclature. Turnpoints are not start or
finish points. A waypoint can be either a start point, a finish point
or a turnpoint (and yes there are some types of flights where you can
use the same waypoint as a different beast if you use it more than
once in the same flight...).

The definition in the Sporting Code for an O&R is very simple.

"OUT AND RETURN FLIGHT: A CLOSED COURSE having two LEGS."

and

"A CLOSED COURSE has the START and FINISH at the same WAY POINT."


---

Do a little SC3 reading and you should be able to see that at the
broadest level of FAI sporting code a closed course has a start point
(declared or otherwise), a finish point (declared or otherwise) and
one turnpoint (must always be declared). Where you take off from, or
get off tow (if using a declared start point) is not part of the
flight performance, but is documented for other reasons to prove you
made the flight etc., and neither is where you land part of the actual
flight performance (unless for you are using the landing as the
finish). Here you normally declare the finish, that gives you the
benefit as well of finishing at altitude to meet height loss
requirements. The height loss applies from your start point fix to
your finish point fix, not off tow etc.

What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish. A free out & return distance
is different but I'm guessing this is not what you are doing. For any
declared start/finish points you could fly from off tow to the start
point 550m or 55km, it makes no difference which is why the sporting
code does not talk about "local" and "remote" starts similar to how
you are trying to.

The usual important advice applies --

1. Find a good OO. If they can't answer the simple question you are
asking here find somebody else. The OO represents the FAI in this
process and really needs to have a good grasp of the sporting code.

2. Regardless of anything else make a paper declaration after any
electronic one (or delete the electronic ones before making a paper
declaration). Then that paper declaration can override the electronic
one. There are just too easy to make mistakes with electronic
declarations.

3. To make the any course actually closed your finish point needs to
be within 1,000m of that, so be careful when using FAI sectors for
start and finish, your actual start and finish point fixes used need
to be within 1 km. The way that is actually spelt out in the sporting
code is the start and finish FAI sector arms for closed courses are
1,000 m in length.


Darryl

On Jul 29, 12:20*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 29, 10:38*am, chris wrote:



I wanted to clarify something about an Out & Return route.

My planned flight is for a 500k O&R. * I want to use
my home airport as a remote start,
fly 10km south to turnpoint 1
fly 250km north to turnpoint 2
fly 240km south and finish at my home airport [same as the remote
start].

Does this fit the FAI sporting code for an O&R definition? *The
wording says something about a route with one turn point. *But if you
mix in a remote start&finish along the first leg do you then end up
with 2 turnpoints?

Is there a fai document that shows remote start options with drawings?

Chris

Here "turnpoint 1" is your home airport? Part of the problem may be
you are confusing some of the nomeclature. Turnpoints are not start or
finish points. A waypoint can be either a start point, a finish point
or a turnpoint (and yes there are some types of flights where you can
use the same waypoint as a different beast if you use it more than
once in the same flight...).

The definition in the Sporting Code for an O&R is very simple.

"OUT AND RETURN FLIGHT: *A CLOSED COURSE having two LEGS."

and

"A CLOSED COURSE has the START and FINISH at the same WAY POINT."

---

Do a little SC3 reading and you should be able to see that at the
broadest level of FAI sporting code a closed course has a start point
(declared or otherwise), a finish point (declared or otherwise) and
one turnpoint (must always be declared). Where you take off from, or
get off tow (if using a declared start point) is not part of the
flight performance, but is documented for other reasons to prove you
made the flight etc., and neither is where you land part of the actual
flight performance (unless for you are using the landing as the
finish). Here you normally declare the finish, that gives you the
benefit as well of finishing at altitude to meet height loss
requirements. The height loss applies from your start point fix to
your finish point fix, not off tow etc.

What exactly are you trying to do? A record (exactly what one?) or a
diamond goal flight? *For a O&R/goal badge flight or O&R speed record
you need to declare the start and finish. A free out & return distance
is different but I'm guessing this is not what you are doing. For any
declared start/finish points you could fly from off tow to the start
point 550m or 55km, it makes no difference which is why the sporting
code does not talk about "local" and "remote" starts similar to how
you are trying to.

The usual important advice applies --

1. Find a good OO. If they can't answer the simple question you are
asking here find somebody else. The OO represents the FAI in this
process and really needs to have a good grasp of the sporting code.

2. Regardless of anything else make a paper declaration after any
electronic one (or delete the electronic ones before making a paper
declaration). Then that paper declaration can override the electronic
one. There are just too easy to make mistakes with electronic
declarations.

3. To make the any course actually closed your finish point needs to
be within 1,000m of that, so be careful when using FAI sectors for
start and finish, your actual start and finish point fixes used need
to be within 1 km. The way that is actually spelt out in the sporting
code is the start and finish FAI sector arms for closed courses are
1,000 m in length.

Darryl

Oops something happened in my edit, and I did not clearly make the
main point...

For a closed course the start and finish points are the same. For a
badge O&R or O&R speed record the start and finish points must be
declared. So your declaration contains a start, one turnpoint and a
finish where the start and finish are the same waypoint. In this case
you take off from, get off tow from (unless it just happens to be
within the start sector and you want to count that as the start point
fix) or land are not part of the flight performance.

Darryl

On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:
What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

On Jul 29, 2:55*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

What's wrong with flying the route as Noel suggested?

Plug the GPS coordinates into the World Distance Calculator (available
on FAI and SSA websites) to check the distance. That is how you will
determine the distance post flight so I would follow its guidance
instead of SeeYou.

On Jul 29, 12:55*pm, chris wrote:
On Jul 29, 2:51*pm, Guy Byars wrote:

What you are suggesting is possible with a triangular task... ie...
starting in the middle of a leg with 3 turnpoints and a start and
finish not on one of the verticies of the triangle. * But that is not
allowed for out and return tasks..

works for triangles, but not for O&R?
I suppose it makes too much logical sense to be allowed!
adding a remote start never shortens the distance flown, it can only
equal exactly or increase the actual distance compared to the claimed
distance.
oh well on to plan b.

So if the direct distance is 500.2km according to SeeYou would it be
risky to fly that declaration? *I was planning on finding another
turnpoint at least 2-5 km further away just so i don't miss it if
someone does the math slightly differently.

Chris

The point is to prevent any possibility of a yo-yo or close to that.
It's to show how good you are at going from some place straight out
and back to another point that you have declared ahead of time. The
sporting code intent and actual rules for O&R make perfect sense.

Darryl