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looking for advice on lead n follow flights



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 1st 18, 02:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy Garden
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Posts: 17
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
.. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.

  #2  
Old November 1st 18, 03:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 6:15:04 PM UTC-7, Roy Garden wrote:
I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.


Ben Hirashima has developed an app to work with GoTenna Mesh. This would be excellent in keeping track of each other.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ng/BbzC-7kp3CM

One technique I've seen used in lead and follow is:
Leader keeps the landing gear down for the whole flight.

Perhaps talk to G. Dale for further advice?
Jim
  #3  
Old November 1st 18, 03:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 465
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 10:09:47 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 6:15:04 PM UTC-7, Roy Garden wrote:
I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.


Ben Hirashima has developed an app to work with GoTenna Mesh. This would be excellent in keeping track of each other.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ng/BbzC-7kp3CM

One technique I've seen used in lead and follow is:
Leader keeps the landing gear down for the whole flight.

Perhaps talk to G. Dale for further advice?
Jim


Roy didn't say which country he's in, although a few bits in his posting hint that it's probably not the USA. Gliderlink (at least the map part) only works in the USA at the moment AFAIK, although Ben says that'll be fixed. In Europe the hardware and software developed by Linar may be useful for this, see the thread about "do it yourself collision avoidance".

I hope to use Gliderlink for "lead and follow", so if anybody has tried that I'd love to hear how it went. Around here there are enough ground features to specify where one is fairly well, but despite that it's proven difficult to rendezvous after getting out of sight of each other. As for the leaving the gear down, mine is down-and-epoxied, so I am hoping that anybody who follows me in a higher performance glider is reasonably safe.
  #4  
Old November 1st 18, 05:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Posts: 952
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

We call it “drag and drop” - experienced pilots lead a newbie on a modest cross-country flight with lots of landing options and drop the hapless pilot at some remote airstrip! Indeed, it was part of my initiation into cross-country soaring in Arizona.

To work, it’s best done with some experienced guys who don’t mind sticking with the newbie. I was led off on a number of flights with one or more such pilots, who would often spoiler down from the top of a thermal to rescue me. You have to stay close. My “drops” involved my landing when I got lower than I was comfortable with - I initially set myself some quite conservative margins.

I got much better with the combination of assistance from fellow pilots and solo practice. Although I never became a great racing pilot, I have managed to log quite a few cross-country miles thanks to some early mentoring and strongly support the use of on-course mentoring.

Mike
  #5  
Old November 1st 18, 07:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Posts: 751
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

I have done a lot of lead-follow training over the years. Very good Power Flarm helps with the correct hardware. You need a good PF core with solid antennas and hardware such as a Oudie or LX9000 display.

Using Team Codes can be very useful. Establish the reference point between the pilots before flight. Very simple after that to give or receive exact locations between pilots. You can use a goto the other pilot and they can fly directly to your location.

As Mike said, the lead pilot has to be ready to pull the boards and join the following pilot at their altitude.
  #6  
Old November 1st 18, 11:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Per Carlin
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Posts: 90
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
- Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
- Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
- The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.


  #7  
Old November 1st 18, 12:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
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Posts: 286
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

Dave Watt helped me a great deal when I was learning down here in thermal
land. The take away lesson for lead and follow is simple: Follow means
follow. As soon as the follower does his / her own thing it goes to worms.

Agree to stay close, play safe, do not stretch the follower out, don't get
separated in height more than a couple of hundred feet, and be prepared to
wait around.

I am very grateful to Watty that he was prepared to help me in this way
back then (not sure he will anymore though!)

Jim

  #8  
Old November 1st 18, 01:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy Garden
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Posts: 17
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
bet=
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight=
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
radio.=


Thanks Per,
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
looks
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.

On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
lift
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)

The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt.
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
follow.

So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
them to check the next bit.

  #9  
Old November 1st 18, 01:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 9:15:04 PM UTC-4, Roy Garden wrote:
I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.


Turn it around and see if it works better.

"Student" leads and the "instructor" trails closely, or flies line abreast, never allows himself to get more than about 2-300' higher, guides actions when needed via radio. The whole point is to develop confidence and decision making ability.

Essential prerequisites are ability to center and climb efficiently, ability to execute a safe landing in whatever sort of landing options are available on your route. The route must be selected with the student's current level of experience and skill in mind.

Instructor should remain within visual contact. Typically 1/4 - 1 mile. Fancy electronics not required. Staying together is the instructors job, completely unloading the student in this respect. Asking a XC newbie to track someone else on a fish finder is a recipe for problems...

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #10  
Old November 1st 18, 01:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default looking for advice on lead n follow flights

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
bet=
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight=
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
radio.=


Thanks Per,
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
looks
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.

On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
lift
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)

The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
follow.

So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
them to check the next bit.


We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine US. Everyone is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is extremely technical, landables fairly sparse.

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave, but even sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time. A mile of altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information to each other.

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult by high wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track. "North Up" probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not flown the most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your ground speed is very low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be 100% responsible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing. Not taking the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie.

best,
Evan / T8
 




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