Should SSA Regional contests allow water in FAI class...15, 18, 20,Open class?

On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost 50lb lighter than some others in my
class. In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

On Dec 14, 2:43*pm, Marc wrote:
On Dec 14, 1:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

I hate to say it, but you need to get out (west) more. 8^)

As far as I know, in Regions 8 through 12 FAI regional classes are
flown with water pretty much by default, with the only exceptions
being sites that lack sufficient access to water, or would be unsafe
with water. * At a lot of sites out here, we even load up with water
when we're flying for fun...

Marc

At the Region 8 contest for the last two years, we have flown dry.
The primary reason is for a safer launch and reducing the launch
time. At Ephrata, with summer temperatures up above 90F, with some of
the newer 15m and 18m gliders, towing the classes up has been impacted
with slower climb rates, resulting in long times at grazing the
landscape and slower tow cycle times. A side benefit is the workload
reduction in the morning.

50

On Dec 15, 7:10*am, wrote:
On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:









On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the *heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

The rule requires fixed ballast and does not allow the ballast to be
in the wings where it is safe. The rule also applies no handicap to
pilots that are over the handicap weight with no additional ballast.

With no fixed ballast I'm at the 778lb limit for my ASW-28 so there is
no way I can adjust up to an LS8 with a heavy pilot that may be well
over its 820lb limit. Since both gliders have the same wing area
there is an obvious disadvantage except when conditions are very
weak. The SSA handicap weight was never intended to be a weight
limit. It's just a reference weight for calculating a handicap. As you
know I have advocated setting the no ballast contest weight limit to
that of the heaviest un-ballasted glider in the class.

This problem is one reason to always allow ballast in FAI classes
except where it poses a safety issue - which provides feedback on the
OP's question.

Andy

Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

On Dec 15, 9:50*am, Andy K3WYC wrote:
On Dec 15, 7:10*am, wrote:









On Dec 15, 8:50*am, Andy wrote:

On Dec 14, 2:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject.

Really? *Show me a west coast thermal flyer who would rather fly a
contest dry. Show me an east coast ridge runner who would rather fly
dry.

In USA all those pilots can fly in sports class if they want to.
Don't mess with the FAI classes freedom to fly with ballast at pilot
discretion.

Water ballast allows a pilot in an FAI class to fly with the wing
loading he chooses (up to max gross wt). *I weigh only 165 pound and
fly a glider that is almost *50lb lighter than some others in my
class. *In a dry contest that puts me over 150 pounds lighter than
some pilots I would compete against.

Any "no ballast" rule should allow all pilots in an FAI class to fly
at the same wing loading or be assigned an appropriate handicap.

Andy (ASW-28 GY)

Current US rules provide for organizer to allow bringing the the
weight of the light guys up to the *heavy guys. This was implemented
in 2010.
UH

The rule requires fixed ballast and does not allow the ballast to be
in the wings where it is safe. The rule also applies no handicap to
pilots that are over the handicap weight with no additional ballast.

With no fixed ballast I'm at the 778lb limit for my ASW-28 so there is
no way I can adjust up to an LS8 with a heavy pilot that may be well
over its 820lb limit. *Since both gliders have the same wing area
there is an obvious disadvantage except when conditions are very
weak. *The SSA handicap weight was never intended to be a weight
limit. It's just a reference weight for calculating a handicap. As you
know I have advocated setting the no ballast contest weight limit to
that of the heaviest un-ballasted glider in the class.

This problem is one reason to always allow ballast in FAI classes
except where it poses a safety issue *- which provides feedback on the
OP's question.

Andy

test to see if my "nickname" gone back to "Andy" The other name was
intended only for use in a JT65 forum.

On Dec 15, 9:57Â*am, Tony wrote:
Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

No. Hank said the rule he was talking about was changed in 2010. The
limited ballast rule was not introduced until 2011.

Andy

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest
or less?
No, You can always fly sports class if you don't like water, and no
one says you have to put it in if you don't want to.


2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? Why?
Flying with water is safe. It is more difficult, but it's safe


3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?
15 - 20


4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with
water?
52.23



3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?
Cordele, Lanno Tx

On Dec 15, 9:57Â*am, Tony wrote:
Andy I think you are thinking about 6.8.3 and Hank is talking about
6.8.4.

6.8.3 â€* No-ballast rules
No-ballast rules shall apply on a day when the CD has announced this
prior to the first launch.
6.8.3.1 Disposable ballast is prohibited with the exception of
disposable tail ballast.
6.8.3.2 Fixed ballast is permitted, but not more than an amount that
brings the sailplane to its maximum handicap weight, as
defined in the SSA Sailplane Handicap List.

6.8.4 ‡ Limited-ballast rules
The CD may announce a limited ballast day no later than one hour
before grid time:
6.8.4.1 ‡ A maximum takeoff weight shall be announced.
6.8.4.2 ‡ Sailplanes may carry disposable ballast that yields a
takeoff weight not greater than the announced maximum.
6.8.4.3 ‡ Sailplanes may exceed the maximum takeoff weight only if
they follow Rule 6.8.3 and if they do not carry removable fixed
ballast (bags of shot, sheets of lead, or any other baggage whose only
purpose is to increase weight).

Yes you are probably right - although the limited ballast rule was
introduced in 2011 and not 2010. Did any contest implement the
limited ballast rule in 2011?

Andy

On Dec 14, 3:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. *I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. *Please take a moment to respond.

AGAINST WATER BALLAST

1) Its unsafe. *Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water.

Not true at all. For the tow pilot, it's just a heavier glider - no
biggie. For the glider pilot, he has to fly a faster pattern if
there is a PTT, and landing distance is greater. Things to consider
in your emergency plan prior to takeoff, but not inherently more
dangerous at most gliding sites.

2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).

So is rigging. Does that mean we have to force everybody to tie down
instead of rigging everyday, as is common in the east? With tanks its
no big deal, with bags and a good standpipe its also no big deal.
Gives time to clean and preflight the glider. Or get your crew
involved...

3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced

A contest tow pilot better be able to handle a wet glider. If the
towplane is so weak that it can't safely tow a wet glider, then I
probably don't want to get towed by it dry! Obvious exceptions for
very short, high, or hot airports, of course - common sense should
prevail - but should be be having contests at those airports?

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the
same, if marginally slower.

Not true - not being able to make ballast decisions takes away from
the pilots ability to affect the outcome of the race.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

So the main argument from the Dry pilots is "Hogwash"? That's
intelligent....

Modern racing gliders are DESIGNED to be flown at different
wingloadings appropriate to different conditions. They handle fine
both dry and wet, can be landed wet without problem (although getting
my old LS6 to stop after a 10 psf landing can be "interesting"!), and
in strong conditions are much nicer when loaded up. Funny how pilots
out west usually fly wet, if possible, even when not at a contest -
could it be that it's more fun, and worth the effort?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

No. I prefer to have the option, but am happy to race dry (cuz I'm
one of those big guys who will have a pound or two on the little guys,
heh heh).

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? *Why?

Neither. See above. No one is forcing you to ballast up, so if the
conditions make it unsafe to do it, it's the PICs decision that makes
it safe or unsafe.

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

Probably half or more of the XC flights (out west) - whenever
conditions make it worthwhile and water is convenient. Back east,
rarely.

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

Probably half or more of the XC flights (out west) - whenever
conditions make it worthwhile and water is convenient. Back east,
rarely.

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Region 9s at Turf and El Tiro.

Kirk
66