Vectored past the localizer

In article ,
Mike Beede wrote:

In article , John Bell
wrote:

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio
traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"

Mike Beede

The controller is indeed supposed to tell you if he's planning to vector
you through the localizer. As you've noticed, it's often not done.
This relatively minor transgression on the controller's part, however,
does not justify your deciding to turn to intercept the localizer
without a clearance.

"Mike Beede" wrote in message
...

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is
either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio
traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 5. Radar

Section 9. Radar Arrivals

5-9-3. VECTORS ACROSS FINAL APPROACH COURSE

Inform the aircraft whenever a vector will take it across the final approach
course and state the reason for such action.

NOTE-
In the event you are unable to so inform the aircraft, the pilot is not
expected to turn inbound on the final approach course unless approach
clearance has been issued.

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT VECTORS ACROSS FINAL FOR (purpose).

EXAMPLE-
"EXPECT VECTORS ACROSS FINAL FOR SPACING."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Final Approach Course Interception, Para 5-9-2.

On 23 Dec 2003 09:38:02 -0800, Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


You and your CFII need to read AIM section 5-4-3, paragraph b.1(b),
which is quite emphatic on this point:

Radar vectors and altitude or flight levels will be issued as
required for spacing and separating aircraft.
begin boldTherefore, pilots must not deviate from the headings
issued by approach control.end bold Aircraft will normally
be informed when it is necessary to vector across the final
approach course for spacing or other reasons. If approach
course crossing is imminent and the pilot has not been informed
that the aircraft will be vectored across the final approach
course, the pilot should query the controller.

So crossing the final approach course alone does not constitute
sufficient grounds to deviate from your assigned clearance. However,
as other posters have mentioned, approach courses are necessarily
close to the ground, so be ready to deviate to avoid terrain or other
obstructions.

Mike Beede wrote:

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:32:32 GMT, Newps wrote:

Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

Well, if the pilot thought the clearance was in error, he should ask. But
other than that, where does it say that the pilot is *required* to ask the
controller if he finds he is being vectored across the FAC without being
specifically told that by ATC?




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:32:32 GMT, Newps wrote:



Mike Beede wrote:

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

Never mind, I just found 5-4-3b1b.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In article %q%Fb.183640$_M.836462@attbi_s54,
Newps wrote:

Not safe or legal. The FAA feels so strongly about this you will get
this question on your IFR exam.

Doug wrote:
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


Better than in a quiet room with several not so happy FAA types across
the table.

--
Ron

Not safe nor is it legal.

If you are 90 degrees to the localizer then you know you should be getting
another heading change to intercept. You usally get your clearance
instructions at the same time as the intercept heading. If you are getting
in close to the localizer, it does not take much time to call ATC and say
"NNN is looking for a turn". This is a very friendly reminder when you feel
that you should have already received your intercept heading and further
instructions.

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

I can recall someone on this group once suggesting that if
you're past the localizer and concerned that you may be getting
close to terrain, and the frequency is too busy to get a word
in, that hitting IDENT is likely to cause ATC to notice.

This seems like a bit of an aggressive solution, but I'd guess the
controllers would prefer it to someone breaking off from their
assigned heading or altitude because of worries about terrain
avoidance. Could any of the controllers comment on this?

--
David Rind

"Newps" wrote in message
news:kN7Gb.636826$Tr4.1642464@attbi_s03...

Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.


Where is that requirement found?