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#1
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when does a "remain clear" instruction end?
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport (which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the "remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? Thank-you. |
#2
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"Arden Prinz" wrote in message .......That brings up a question --- when does the "remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? ...I figured that since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are used. The controller didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared into...', or some such. The "remain clear" instruction is so that you don't come barging into the class C immediately after takeoff, before the controller has a chance to identify and coordinate you. He probably didn't make an issue of it because he was about to clear you to turn in anyway [speculation on my part.]. |
#3
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time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like you could be a nuisance. . Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to be bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets on and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following" and then the game of 20 questions starts. to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? When you explicitly get permission to enter. |
#4
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"John Harlow"
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like you could be a nuisance. Sounds like it could have been a standard instruction for any a/c on the ground calling in before departure. Not clear anyone is a nuisance or that there is *any* traffic. Local practices vary. . Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, If you didn't automatically give him all that right after establishing contact with him (assuming him), then maybe that's why he didn't want to be bothered by you. I can just hear the controllers sigh when someone gets on and says "podunk approach, november 12345, would like flight following" and then the game of 20 questions starts. Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot called himself? to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? When you explicitly get permission to enter. .... or in this Class C situation, after announcing my intent to proceed direct on course thru the Class C. I would consider any acknowledgement of the call that did not include a "remain clear" to be sufficient to proceed on course. That's not how I would do it, but I think that would be ok. I'm thinking that it may be local practice to instruct any pilot on the ground to remain clear of the Class C. Once in the air, the normal Class C procedures would apply. Which would mean once contact is established, entry would be permitted subject to any instruction to the contrary. But since a remain clear had already been issued, I too would want explicit permission to enter. |
#5
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Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have permission. The short answer is to request on course after estaablishing two way radio contact. Class B: you have to have a clearance. |
#6
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Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is clearance to enter the class C airspace.. 2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that exact phrase Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said, "radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio contact (per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared to enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say so... Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules... I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1 and expects you to also understand it... denny "Arden Prinz" wrote in message om... Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport (which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the "remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? Thank-you. |
#7
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EDR wrote
Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have permission. "Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology. If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D. Bob Moore |
#8
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The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace,
John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless he specifically instructs you to remain clear... What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand clear, any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per the rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a heading, etc.. A point the FAA ought to clarify... I would, like you, prefer that the AIM require the controller to say, ". . . cleared . . . " It does not, that I can find... denny "John Gaquin" wrote in When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared into...', or some such. |
#9
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How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If
so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance, you won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification, you could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light. "Arden Prinz" wrote in message om... Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport (which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the "remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? Thank-you. |
#10
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