New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

I sent a comment - I encourage anyone who soars out of Truckee, Minden, or Air Sailing (or ever wants to) to do the same. The high area will be particularly bad.

Posted a reply to AOPA and FAA with a link to my flights over the proposed MOA.
https://share.garmin.com/JamesLee4

What's the big deal? Every flight I make from my home airport at Inyokern (except a pattern tow :-) is in a MOA. There are no rules to keep me out, but I do need to be more aware for military traffic.
The proposed MOA is to enclose airspace that is already being used for military exercises. Looks like they just want to make it more obvious to VFR pilots and to protect IFR flights by providing an official tool for routing them around the airspace when it's active.
Read the AIM. This will not affect soaring in that area.

3-4-5 Military Operations Areas
a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.
b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.
c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real�time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.
d. Permanent MOAs are charted on Sectional Aeronautical, VFR Terminal Area, and the appropriate En Route Low Altitude charts.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 7:20:53 PM UTC-7, 5Z wrote:
What's the big deal? Every flight I make from my home airport at Inyokern (except a pattern tow :-) is in a MOA. There are no rules to keep me out, but I do need to be more aware for military traffic.
The proposed MOA is to enclose airspace that is already being used for military exercises. Looks like they just want to make it more obvious to VFR pilots and to protect IFR flights by providing an official tool for routing them around the airspace when it's active.
Read the AIM. This will not affect soaring in that area.

3-4-5 Military Operations Areas
a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.
b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.
c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real�time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.
d. Permanent MOAs are charted on Sectional Aeronautical, VFR Terminal Area, and the appropriate En Route Low Altitude charts.

I'm with you - the military can operate almost anywhere at anytime, governed by the same airspace rules that we must follow. In Washington low altitude flights are made out of Whidbey Island to the Boardman Bombing Range, which takes them over the Cascade Mountains, down the Columbia River and up and over several ridges. High altitude flights descending to ground level are down out of McCord involving C-17s (with only a 3 man crew). And there IS NO MOA. I fly out of Ely during the summer with MOAs nearby - this summer I noticed one pair of fighters. What is more troubling is that these fighters were not using transponders or ADS-B; part of their training, I assume.

Tom

That last part is what concerns me the most, if military aircrafts indeed not using transponders or ADS-B nor receiving alerts from our transponders/ADS-B (direct or indirect via ATC) than this is an accident waiting to happen. There is no way they can see us in time to avoid us, and no way we can react fast enough to avoid them.
At the minimum we can do our part to educate them about our presence.

Ramy

I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

This area is a bit of an FAA radar coverage black hole. Looking at the FAA Google Earth ADS-B and radar/SSR coverage map (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace) there are significant radar coverage gaps up until somewhere between 5,000' and 10,000' AGL (not MSL). FAA radar coverage in that area is likely the approach radar at Reno airport, and the area radar out of Mount Tam/Mill Valley way on the other side of California, the FAA may still tie into the Fallon NAS radar... and if so the implication of less than great coverage in that area may be concerning... it may mean that military controllers don't have great radar coverage either.

I'd hope PASCO and/or the pilot organizations out of Minden, Truckee etc. would be able to track down what military control facility is responsible for watching this airspace, and what radar/SSR coverage they actually have. Is that Fallon RATCF, even if they don't have "control" over it are they watching for MOA activity? That seems pretty useful to understand in making an informed response.

One other question is what are/will be the actual operations procedures for transponder and/or ADS-B Out equipped military aircraft. I would not just assume they will necessarily turn off that equipment, and one good ask may be that they don't, that would be something great to ask folks and to explain that many gliders flying in that area are equipped with 1090ES In via PowerFLARM.

---

I'll be talking about ADS-B and Flarm at the PASCO annual meeting on the November 9th. Happy to help out then or otherwise with any of the more technical radar or ADS-B stuff that might help here.

I doubt anybody has much chance of changing the proposed MOA designation, the USMC has to support/use the current mountain training facilities there. It may be more useful to focus on collaboration and joint education with the military.

It's been a very long time, but in my day it was routine to "strangle
parrot" or squawk standby to make it more difficult for GCI (Ground
Controlled Intercept) controllers to find the "bad guy" and vector the
interceptors to target.Â* I don't think it would be any different today.Â*
Do you really think the bad guys will be squawking and running their
ADS-B transmitters during a fight?Â* That wouldn't make for very good
training.

On 10/6/2019 5:57 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.
This area is a bit of an FAA radar coverage black hole. Looking at the FAA Google Earth ADS-B and radar/SSR coverage map (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace) there are significant radar coverage gaps up until somewhere between 5,000' and 10,000' AGL (not MSL). FAA radar coverage in that area is likely the approach radar at Reno airport, and the area radar out of Mount Tam/Mill Valley way on the other side of California, the FAA may still tie into the Fallon NAS radar... and if so the implication of less than great coverage in that area may be concerning... it may mean that military controllers don't have great radar coverage either.

I'd hope PASCO and/or the pilot organizations out of Minden, Truckee etc. would be able to track down what military control facility is responsible for watching this airspace, and what radar/SSR coverage they actually have. Is that Fallon RATCF, even if they don't have "control" over it are they watching for MOA activity? That seems pretty useful to understand in making an informed response.

One other question is what are/will be the actual operations procedures for transponder and/or ADS-B Out equipped military aircraft. I would not just assume they will necessarily turn off that equipment, and one good ask may be that they don't, that would be something great to ask folks and to explain that many gliders flying in that area are equipped with 1090ES In via PowerFLARM.

---

I'll be talking about ADS-B and Flarm at the PASCO annual meeting on the November 9th. Happy to help out then or otherwise with any of the more technical radar or ADS-B stuff that might help here.

I doubt anybody has much chance of changing the proposed MOA designation, the USMC has to support/use the current mountain training facilities there. It may be more useful to focus on collaboration and joint education with the military.




--
Dan, 5J