How common are aircraft partnerships compared to outright ownerships?

TripFarmer wrote:

Is 200 members and 4 airplanes really a club?

I read the description to indicate 4 warriors, as opposed to 4 planes. For
4 planes, that would be an incredible ratio (~5 times the member/plane
ratio my club maintains).

That does beg a question that's been at the back of my mind for a while.
For a "share based" club (like mine) where members all own a chunk of the
action, what's the difference between "club" and "partnership"?

- Andrew

On 8-Aug-2005, xyzzy wrote:

In the club I pay dues of $45/mo, and $80/hr wet to fly 160 hp Piper
Warrior II's with Apollo GPS and coupled autopilot. The club has a
fleet of four of them. That is the sum total of my airplane expenses and
includes a very good insurance policy (all club members are named
insureds), access to a hangar with offices that the club owns, and
social events. Since joining the club I've been flying on average 6
hours a month, which is 72 hours a year. I know exactly how much it has
cost me and I also know exactly how much it will cost me in the future
to fly.


So that works out to $87.50 per hour total cost ($80 + $45/6). Not bad,
but...

I co-own (with 2 others) an Arrow IV. We each fly roughly 70 hours/year,
for a total of (typically) a bit over 200 hours. We almost never have
scheduling conflicts. A couple of years ago we calculated what our hourly
costs were running, including all direct and indirect operating costs --
essentially everything we spent to fly, maintain, store, insure, and upgrade
the plane. Since the value of the plane is probably increasing at about the
same rate as most low-risk investments, we did not factor in the cost of
missed investment opportunity associated with our equity. The number came
out to about $90/hr, quite a bit below what rental rates would be for a
comparable plane. With today's higher fuel costs, the number is now
probably running closer to $100/hr.

We keep the plane meticulously maintained, stored in an enclosed hangar, and
we have a $1 million "smooth" liability policy as well as low deductible
hull coverage. The only maintenance we do ourselves is oil changes.

What this shows is that once annual utilization gets to about 200 hrs/year,
the per hour costs tend to flatten out. That's why I prefer my co-ownership
arrangement. Diff'rent strokes, as they say.

-Elliott Drucker

Joe - Great that you're looking into buying/co-owning a plane. FWIW, it
took me about six months to find both a set of partners and a plane. I
joined the Cardinal Flyers Online when I first started looking and that
was a source for a couple partnership contacts. Then again, I was
looking into a Cardinal at that time so it made sense to go with CFO.
However, groups like the Cherokee Pilot's association would be good as
well since you can get some local contacts. It turns out that one of my
current partners was a guy I'd met in a ground school and he knew
another guy who was interested. End result: a 3-way partnership in a
'71 Arrow and things are working out great.

Ask around your FBO, folks at the airport, and just about anyone you run
into. Be patient as the process can take some time. Good luck!

Jack Allison
Arrow N2104T

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Nobody but you mentioned 172SPs. The OP certainly didn't

Don't get hung up on my mention of the SP model. The OP mentioned "newer
(but not brand new)" C172s. Thus, I assumed post-1998 models, which are
all fuel injected and most contain more advanced avionics than a typical,
older Warrior.

In order to accurately reflect my experience, I used SP since that was
what
it was, but I certainly could have included the R model in my assumption
about how long a checkout would take when going from a Warrier to either
of
these models.

and again I wans't talking about SPs

You weren't? Then why didn't you say so when you first stated, "If you
are
current in a Warrior and anybody REQUIRES 3-5 hours checkout in a
Skyhawk they are just making money off you." Instead, you made a
blanket
statement that seems to imply all 172 models.

Given the "newer (but not brand new)" quote from the original post, you
were no more at liberty (and therefore no more right or wrong) to assume a
pre-1998 model than I was to assume a post-1998 model.



Well Peter the OP did mention that they were switching to Cessna because the
vintage aircraft they were looking for was during the Piper bankruptcy isn't
that pre-1996?

You'll have to forgive me. When I think Skyhawk I think Fixed Gear,
Non-constant speed prop, carbureted engine. I think you really know what I
meant and are just being argumentative.

Peter R. wrote:

I have about 450 hours in a C172SP and I would probably need a couple of
hours of instruction/flying just to become familiar with carb heat usage if
I hypothetically needed to rent an older C172 model.

Pull out the carb heat below the green arc. Push it in aboove the green
arc. There. You're checked out.

Montblack wrote:

("xyzzy" wrote)

5. With a fleet of four basically identical planes, not completely
grounded by squawks, annuals, overhauls, etc.


We also have 152's, which are such low-end trainers that hardly any
non-student pilots fly them, and Mooneys, and there are some members
that fly both Warriors and Mooneys. Most members just fly one type
though, because each type caters to a different market.



200+ members - 4 wariors. Hmm, something's not right.

Not all members are as active as other members.


Now I see 152's and Monneys. Ahhh, better :-)

Got a club link?


http://www.wingsofcarolina.org

(rates haven't been updated, they went up in June, Warrior is now $80,
Mooney is now $120, not sure what the 152's are now).

Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

You'll have to forgive me. When I think Skyhawk I think Fixed Gear,
Non-constant speed prop, carbureted engine.

Fair enough. With that clarification, I agree with you that three-to-
five hours does seem excessive for a Warrior pilot, if indeed the features
you listed are the features of the C172 to which the pilot is
transitioning.

However, I honestly didn't know if your initial statement included the
newer model 172s, which have enough differences (IMO) to warrant a longer
checkout. Therefore I sought further clarification. FWIW, when I think
Skyhawk, I think of the abilities and features of the newer models.
Therein is the nature of our disagreement.

I think you really know what I meant and are just being argumentative.

Eh? I disagreed with your comment about the three hour checkout and
provided the reasons for my disagreement. You now dismiss all of this as
argumentative and hide behind the excuse that I knew what you meant all
along, as if I am some type of mind reader? That's just silly.

If you look again at my first post in this thread, it only asked what model
to which you were referring. You are welcome to quote the words from my
post that you interpreted as argumentative.

Need I remind you that in your follow-up, it was you who lobbed a personal
barb by questioning how many hours it took me to solo, as if you expected
this to demonstrate some level of incompetence.


--
Peter
























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Well, the club has 9 airplanes, four of which are Warriors. Not all 200
members fly regularly. Many members own their own planes in addition to
membership.

The club has very liberal overnight policies. Each member can take two
2-week trips a year, and each member can go overnight one weekend a
month, IIRC. I don't know for sure because the policy is liberal enough
to have never constrained me. Minimum daily rental on overnights is 1
hour.

TripFarmer wrote:

Is 200 members and 4 airplanes really a club? Can you ever keep
it overnight or more than 2 hours? I went the partnership way 3 years ago and recently
bought my partners out of our 235. I got to fly more airplane in
the partnership than I could afford on my own. But I decided I
wanted it all so I have it all. But 200 members?! WOW!


Trip


In article , says...

Roger wrote:


First, partnerships and clubs are probably the predominant way of
owning an aircraft or at least part of one.
You might look into local flying clubs as well as partnerships. They
are *usually* more flexible, less expensive, and may have more
available aircraft.


I fly in a large club (200+ members) and a couple of times in the last
year I have seriously looked into buying, both solo and partnership, but
quite frankly the club is such a good deal I can't justify buying.

In the club I pay dues of $45/mo, and $80/hr wet to fly 160 hp Piper
Warrior II's with Apollo GPS and coupled autopilot. The club has a
fleet of four of them. That is the sum total of my airplane expenses and
includes a very good insurance policy (all club members are named
insureds), access to a hangar with offices that the club owns, and
social events. Since joining the club I've been flying on average 6
hours a month, which is 72 hours a year. I know exactly how much it has
cost me and I also know exactly how much it will cost me in the future
to fly.

I ran the spreadsheet on buying a low-end plane by myself, and also on
buying into a 3-way partnership on a little bit nicer plane. I never
could make it work out without significant fudging, even leaving out the
unknowns like how long before I need an overhaul, repairs, etc.

My perception of the advantages and disadvantages of club vs. ownership:

Advantages:

1. Cheaper
2. Absolutely predictable and controllable expenses (don't want to
spend as much this month? Don't fly as much).
3. No financial risk (unexpected maint, value-killing ADs, sudden
medical problem that makes an owned plane a white elephant, etc)
4. Maintenance not all my responsibility (members chip in to do
maintenance but it doesn't all fall on one or two people). Financially,
each squawk doesn't mean more $$$ out of my pocket.
5. With a fleet of four basically identical planes, not completely
grounded by squawks, annuals, overhauls, etc.
6. I fly planes with better avionics and more capability than I could
afford to buy myself
7. It's easy to figure exactly what it costs me to fly (yes this can
also be a disadvantage .

Disadvantages:

1. Availability -- don't count on being able to fly on a nice weekend
day unless you reserved well ahead. This is the flip side of advantage #5.
2. Don't totally control my own fate. For example: Accidents or
negligence by other members could affect the club's insurance situation
(partnerships have this problem too, but with a club there's more
people, therefore more variables). Another example: if the club board
decides to sell or replace an airplane or change aircraft types, or
specify different avionics from what I like, I have very little say in
the matter.
3. Even though it's cheaper in the long run, it's emotionally hard to
write a large check when returning from a long trip. More flying means
you pay more, whereas when you own more flying means it gets cheaper (on
a per-hour basis, anyway)
4. Must follow club SOP's, for example minimum runway lengths, required
preapproval for grass strips, etc. For me this is not a problem because
it ameliorates the first concern in disadvantage #2, plus my own
personal mins exceed the SOPs but others might find it too restrictive.
5. Some clubs may restrict flexibility for long trips (though mine is
pretty liberal on it and it hasn't been a problem for anyone as far as I
know).
6. Easy to figure exactly what it costs to fly
7. No pride of ownership.

I've concluded that I'd like to own a plane someday, but it will have to
be when I have a lot more money than I do now. C'mon, stock market!

Newps wrote:

Peter R. wrote:

I have about 450 hours in a C172SP and I would probably need a couple of
hours of instruction/flying just to become familiar with carb heat usage if
I hypothetically needed to rent an older C172 model.

Pull out the carb heat below the green arc. Push it in aboove the green
arc. There. You're checked out.

Thanks. If it is really that easy, then why are there so many NTSB
accident reports that list carb icing as a contributory cause?

--
Peter
























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wrote:

What this shows is that once annual utilization gets to about 200 hrs/year,
the per hour costs tend to flatten out. That's why I prefer my co-ownership
arrangement. Diff'rent strokes, as they say.

I agree with your analysis, you are lucky to have a partnership that
works well for you. I did mention in my analysis that as club drawback
is that, unlike ownership, club flying does not get cheaper as the hours
increase. On the flip side, if I don't fly much in a month I don't
spend much, so I can control my expenses almost directly by how much I
fly, whereas with ownership the fixed costs are higher.