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#11
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"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om... I am sorry if this offends anybody, however this sentence "It did give me a very good appreciation for GPS though... I wouldn't fly passengers in actual without it..." is quite concerning to me. I understand that each person has a different comfort level, but what is happening to the pilots of today when we are no longer comfortable flying passengers without the use of GPS? What happened to VOR and ADF skills? Maybe rather than not flying passengers without GPS, it would be a better idea of going to get some dual in VOR and ADF usage so you are comfortable flying with passengers without the use of GPS. Valid point. On my last CC I spent some time practicing my VOR navigation simply because once again I found myself losing what little 'touch' I had. Haven't done a VOR approach in awhile though. I don't have an ADF - only have book learning and with zero experience. I think the opposite applies in some cases - while a lot of people rely on GPSs, not everyone is proficient using the particular unit they are relying on. They seem both easier and more challenging if that's possible. |
#12
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"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om... I am sorry if this offends anybody, however this sentence "It did give me a very good appreciation for GPS though... I wouldn't fly passengers in actual without it..." is quite concerning to me. I understand that each person has a different comfort level, but what is happening to the pilots of today when we are no longer comfortable flying passengers without the use of GPS? What happened to VOR and ADF skills? Maybe rather than not flying passengers without GPS, it would be a better idea of going to get some dual in VOR and ADF usage so you are comfortable flying with passengers without the use of GPS. It's not about a comfort level for me... it's about pilot workload. There is a tremendous amount of work involved in flying heads down in the clouds, so any device that can help alleviate that load is welcome by me. It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? My instructor is definitely of the opinion (and I share the same view) that it is not. I make it a point to be proficient at using all of the equipment available in the plane... VOR, NDB, COM, Transponder, GPS, Autopilot in my case. If any (or all) of them went TU, no problem, I know the emergency procedures very well. But I don't think it's worth it to risk the lives of anybody but myself if I don't have every single one of those "assistants" helping me out when I'm the only pilot in the plane. -- Guy Elden Jr. |
#13
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"Guy Elden Jr." writes:
It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? Why wouldn't it be safe? I have nothing against GPS or an autopilot -- I'll happily accept the gift of a Garmin 530 and/or STEC 30 installed in my Warrior from the first person who offers -- but even though I'm a very new IFR pilot (only since last August), I've flown myself and my family several times in solid IMC, day and night, using the VORs and the ADF. As far as workload goes, I don't think it's any harder tuning in a VOR frequency than it is selecting three or four alphanumerics with a rocker switch or buttons for a GPS waypoint. The only time I'd be reluctant to trust VOR or ADF for enroute would be flying through a canyon or something similar, where a mile or so off course would matter quite a bit. I don't live near any terrain that high, though. All the best, David |
#14
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It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? That depends on the proficiency of the pilot. In the long term, (over) reliance on GPS reduces your proficiency in the cockpit. This can come back to bite. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#15
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I think it is very safe to fly the airplane with two VORs and ADF, if
you are a proficient instrument pilot. This was done for thirty plus years prior to GPS coming into the cockpit without much problem. Remember, GPS is still a rather new invention when it comes to aviation usage. Lynne "Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message ... It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? My instructor is definitely of the opinion (and I share the same view) that it is not. |
#16
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#17
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David Megginson wrote in message ...
"Guy Elden Jr." writes: It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? Why wouldn't it be safe? With all respect, David, I think you and "Maule Guy" are letting Troller Chick (*aka Lynne Miller* -- remember "Slav Inger is getting a tattoo" and "throw out that checklist" etc etc) get it mixed for you. There's a distinction between proficiency/capability and safety. And safety is a continuum, where safe/unsafe are a matter of personal limits. For example, obviously it's possible to complete a night IMC flight safely in a single-engine plane equipped with VOR and ADF. It's possible to be proficient with these navaids and to know your position with a fair degree of certainty. Yet some people would argue that night IMC in a single engine plane is not a safe trip for pax, and they have an inarguable point IMO. If the fan quits in a SE plane, your options are strictly limited, no matter how proficient and capable and situationally aware you are. Night, IMC, and night IMC both decrease your options. If someone's personal limits don't allow them to take pax IMC in a single, I have no argument against their view even though my own personal limits differ and we fly our daughter SE IMC. There's a similar issue with GPS. Yes, it's possible to know exactly where you are w/ 2 VORs and an ADF, but single pilot IMC, there's no question it's higher workload-- may require retuning stations and resetting radials with the possibility for undetected error which this entails. And this is true no matter how proficient and capable you are with the equipment. GPS adds situational awareness and capability. Thus it adds safety. If you start smelling smoke, a handheld GPS gives you the option to slap the master switch off while maintaining the ability to navigate. If the fan quits, it will take you to the nearest airport at the touch of a button. IMO it's just as inarguable that GPS adds safety and that it's a perfectly reasonable view to say "I wouldn't fly pax in IMC without it" -- and this has absolutely nothing to do with VOR/ADF proficiency. Now, a multiengine plane and the continued proficiency to fly it safely are a significant capitol investment. But a useful handheld GPS can be had for a couple hundred bucks. Maybe less if you shop carefully for a used unit. So don't dismiss the viewpoint that it's unsafe to fly pax IMC without a GPS. Think about your plans if you start smelling electrical smoke in IMC (BTDT), or if the engine quits, or even if you have a vacuum failure or wx is forming around you and you have to scurry for an airport in a hurry. That GPS adds a lot of safety "bang for the buck" and I have no argument against the viewpoint of someone who wouldn't leave home IMC without it. Best, Sydney |
#18
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#19
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David Megginson ) wrote:
The poster also mentioned flying with an autopilot, though it fell out of the followups. That makes a lot more sense as a personal safety minimum, since the AP does actually help to keep the wings level. Personally, I'm happy to hand fly, but I believe that my plane would be safer if it had a simple wing-leveller that I could hit as a panic button if I ever experienced extreme vertigo. I'm willing to fly without it, but I can respect that other people might not be. Interesting you mention this point. I am in the process of watching a few of the Richard Collins Sporty's aviation DVDs. In the IFR Tips and Techniques DVD, he offers a PoV that suggest a pilot hand flying in IMC does not necessarily have the big picture view that a pilot who uses an AP might. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#20
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Peter R. writes:
Interesting you mention this point. I am in the process of watching a few of the Richard Collins Sporty's aviation DVDs. In the IFR Tips and Techniques DVD, he offers a PoV that suggest a pilot hand flying in IMC does not necessarily have the big picture view that a pilot who uses an AP might. I haven't heard that before. Is it because hand flying doesn't leave you as much time to look at charts, etc., and interpret secondary information? All the best, David |
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