tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 22, 5:40*pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
"Ramy" wrote in message

...
On Jul 22, 6:44 am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:





One hour or a thousand in type - it doesn't make a bit of difference to
the
pilot's required knowledge of signals!. That's just making excuses for
poorly trained pilots (and CFIGs)...

"Walt Connelly" wrote in
message

.. .

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the
"pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal..
We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow *and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

Wow! *Don't you know that your spoilers are out? *I must have only flown the
best gliders (or the worst) because it's always apparent to me that the
spoilers are open - noise, turbulence, handle out of detent, pitch
attitude...[/i][/color]

Of course it is apparent when you open your spoilers. But apparently
it is not always apparent in emergency when the spoilers were either
left open or were sucked open. I know of experience pilots and
instructors who did not realize that the spoilers are open. Otherwise
we wouldn't have this discussion.

Ramy


Ramy

Agreed, no excuses for no knowing and having practiced the standard
signals. Nothing to do with time in model. IMVHO, 50 hours is needed
for most pilots to development an intimate adaption for the best
performance and subtle nuances and spiteful characteristics of a
particular glider.

On Jul 22, 7:44*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
One hour or a thousand in type - it doesn't make a bit of difference to the
pilot's required knowledge of signals!. *That's just making excuses for
poorly trained pilots (and CFIGs)...

"Walt Connelly" wrote in message

...









Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. *The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. *We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. *JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly[/i][/color]

Hi Bart,

It's interesting to me that "traffic pattern altitude" is not defined in 14 CFR part 1. As far as I know, any flight that includes a takeoff, climb and turn qualifies as a BFR flight. I'm sure no expert on the FAR's though.

I think I read somewhere that the FAA definition (somewhere) of traffic pattern flight includes the requirement that it be within a half mile of the landing spot. I can't remember where I saw this though.

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 1:04:43 PM UTC-4, Jim Lewis wrote:
Hi Bart,

It's interesting to me that "traffic pattern altitude" is not defined in 14 CFR part 1. As far as I know, any flight that includes a takeoff, climb and turn qualifies as a BFR flight. I'm sure no expert on the FAR's though.

I think I read somewhere that the FAA definition (somewhere) of traffic pattern flight includes the requirement that it be within a half mile of the landing spot. I can't remember where I saw this though.

Long dead thread resurrected... I was told at my CFI refresher clinic that
the FAA considers the low rope break to be a pattern flight, especially since
it helps promote safer flying by practicing emergency procedures.

Matt

TPA may not be defined in 14 CFR Part 1, but there's a section on it in the (yes, I know, not regulatory) AIM 4-3-3. "Traffic Patterns".

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 4:29:08 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
TPA may not be defined in 14 CFR Part 1, but there's a section on it in the (yes, I know, not regulatory) AIM 4-3-3. "Traffic Patterns".

Hi Bob,

The stuff in the AIM is not regulatory but it is important for us to pay close attention to it. My feeling about the description of traffic patterns in the AIM is not due to it not being regulatory, it's due to it looking like it's describing a suggested pattern for power aircraft, not for gliders.

Also, traffic pattern altitude, even for power aircraft, is not a universal value. We have all seen traffic pattern altitudes at a variety of airfields specified at altitudes from 500' for gliders (Rosamond) to 1500' for large aircraft at some fields. If we are doing our BFR in a glider at Rosamond do we need to delay a rope break to 500' so we reach "traffic pattern altitude". Maybe, but it seems foolish to me. I will continue to accept a rope break at 300' feet or so as qualifying for a BFR flight - but that's just me.

The PT3 recovery maneuver is something I have my students practice every flight; we go through the motions during the normal release from tow. Doing this each flight makes the mechanical skills practically automatic.

I tried to come up with a mnemonic to use during practice. Since SH%# is the most likely word one would say following an actual PT3, I tried to come up with something that works with that word. I could not come up with something for each letter.

So, I settled on a cleaner version of that four-letter word: RATS.

Release, release
Airspeed
Turn
Spoilers

By the way, during a Region 9 contest at Hobbs a number of years ago, I had a real PT3 at about 150' AGL. When the mechanical procedures are well established, the recovery maneuver is made easier.

Practicing the PT3 maneuver is important.

Raul Boerner

Thank god it is an old thread and not another accident.
Why reopening a thread from 4 years ago??
Unfortunately Google Groups do not make it obvious that it is an old thread.
Sigh!

Ramy