I give up, after many, many years!

A Lieberman writes:

Read my ILS rational, where you feel the applied power to capture the
glide slope. If you don't feel it in the seat of your pants, you got
a bigger issue. If you are above the glide slope, and you reduce
power, the lack of pressure in your butt should happen, but if the
opposite happens, you have a problem.

To capture the glide slope, you watch the needles on your instruments.

Good example, though not likely, but very possible is having the trim
set in the nose down position rather then nose up. Apply power and
instead of maintaining level altitude, you just accelerated downhill
and you wouldn't get that firm seat of the pants feeling.

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. Your
altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator
will tell you about changes in speed.

Remember, that the above sensations helps CONFIRM the instruments, NOT
the other way around.

No. The instruments confirm. The instruments are the final authority. If
you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you
don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will
only get you into trouble.

You can't.

Yes, you can. You can fly entirely with instruments. You _have to_ fly
entirely with instruments in IMC. Doing anything else is dangerous.

It's a combination that makes it all work.

No combination is necessary.

If you put 100 percent faith in instruments and ignore what I am
describing above, then you are failing to recognize instrumentation
or airplane setting errors, and that will lead to a not so good ending.

Failing instruments in IMC usually lead to a not-so-good ending. The seat of
your pants won't help you.

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

No, it's instruments.

Again, go up with an IA rated pilot, see what the real deal is all
about. That hood just doesn't do it any justice, nor will any MSFS
desktop simulator do it.

This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. In the real world, in IMC, you fly
by instruments.

Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn.

If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems
than just failing instruments.

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end.

Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

Gotcha. That's quite a different "sensation" than the inner ear -- thanks
for the clarification.

However, I think many in this group are arguing right past MX, dismissing
him out of hand simply because most of the respondents can't stand him.
Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during
instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of
relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On May 17, 9:37*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. *Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. *At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

Did you miss the part about the trim setting in a nose down position?
The above answer is WRONG when you don't have the airplane configured
correctly. Ignore your senses, you are dead.

The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. *This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. *Your
altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator
will tell you about changes in speed.

Did you miss the part about the possibility of icing affecting the
pitot static system? You fly a real plane as described above and
ignore the seat of your pants sensation and you are dead.

No. *The instruments confirm. *The instruments are the final authority.. *If
you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you
don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will
only get you into trouble.

WRONG. Please RE-READ MY POST.

You can't.

Yes, you can. *You can fly entirely with instruments. *You _have to_ fly
entirely with instruments in IMC. *Doing anything else is dangerous.

It's a combination that makes it all work.

No combination is necessary.

WRONG. Until you get in a real plane, you have no experience to even
comment on this thread. AGAIN, I use MSFS, and it does not compare
one iota, so I am talking from experience both from the simulation
part and flying a real airplane? Can you say this????

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

No, it's instruments.

and if the instruments fail or glide slope fails or localizer? and you
don't identify it with the seat of your pants? You are one dead
puppy.

This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. *In the real world, in IMC, you fly
by instruments.

WRONG. Take some flight lessons.

Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn.

If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems
than just failing instruments.

WRONG. Cowling is a visual reference point that just like my horizon
indicator showed straight and level in IMC. If I followed your advice
and trusted my instruments, I wouldn't be typing this post. I WOULD
BE DEAD!

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end.

Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb.

It is perfectly useable to verify climb. I never said rate of climb.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed.

WRONG. See above.

On May 17, 9:43*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during
instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of
relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC.

Actually my point does!

The fly by the seat of my pants did not feel like I had a 20 to 30
degree pitch up which my horizon indicator showed (which was
waaaaaaaaay more then Vx pitch).

Had I followed the horizon indicator and leveled the plane soley by
the HI, I would have been in a 20 degee pitch down and augured it in.
There was nothing accurate about my HI and it was my seat of the pants
feeling that set all sorts of alarms and bells out in my head..

It was the seat of my pants that said no, don't trust the instrument,
something just doesn't feel right and start looking at my secondary
instruments for assistance. I saw my VSI at a 700 foot climb rate and
90 knot airspeed. In my Sundowner, that is my normal climb for 2000
feet MSL for a normal climb pitch.

My DG regressed on the climb, so I had no true knowledge that I was
even off the heading until I check the GPS ground track, and was only
10 degrees off my assigned heading. So, for bank information, I now
had to switch from my DG to my GPS track as the HI was useless and my
turn coordinator is out of my scan area.

It was at this point I notified ATC that I had no vacuum system so if
I had deviations, they would know something was not up to snuff on my
end.

Again, by flying by the seat of my pants and knowing how my plane
feels at given stages of flight, that really saved my skin especially
in the identify the problem stage!

Had I taken Mx's advice and your implied advice, it wouldn't be a
pretty picture if I "solely trusted my instruments" Had I trusted the
instruments, I would have lowered the nose, airspeed builds and the
rest is history.

Allen

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

And once again you parrot something you've read without the slightest
understanding and absolutely no concept of context.

The real world is not one or zero with everything black or white.

Like a lot of what you spout, this is GENERALLY true, but not ALWAYS true.

snip remaining babbling nonsense

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In rec.aviation.piloting Jay Honeck wrote:
A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on
sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you
feel?

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. MX is arguing that
you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants --
which is 100% correct.

You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by
the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window!

If you'd have bothered to actually read the thread, VFR was specifically
under discussion.

MX shifts focus to suit his current arguement.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On May 18, 1:59*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 17, 6:37 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:





A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on
sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you
feel?

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. * MX is arguing that
you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants --
which is 100% correct.
You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by
the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window!
God almighty, keep it up -- it's "Who's on first" all over again, and some
pretty damned good Saturday night entertainment!
:-)

After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're
in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned.
Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was
clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow.


BS! In VFR the position of the horizon tells you the difference. In
many planes there is no AH 'cos you don't need it for VFR!
The engine noise also tells you if you are descending or climging.

Cheers

On May 17, 8:33 pm, More_Flaps wrote:
On May 18, 1:59 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
....
After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're
in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned.
Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was
clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow.

BS! In VFR the position of the horizon tells you the difference. In
many planes there is no AH 'cos you don't need it for VFR!
The engine noise also tells you if you are descending or climging.
Cheers

What you say is true, for a good experienced pilot,
who have flown disorientation exersizes.
But I'll provide this challenge, block off the speedometer
in your car and I'll bet you'll have a problem driving.
What happens to me is I drift up to 80 MPH, then
go "holy poop".
Ken

On May 17, 8:43*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

Gotcha. *That's quite a different "sensation" than the inner ear -- thanks
for the clarification.

However, I think many in this group are arguing right past MX, dismissing
him out of hand simply because most of the respondents can't stand him.
Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during
instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of
relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay, folks in this group dismiss his ideas about instrument flight in
the same way that someone who's been married for over 40 years would
dismiss a lecture on sexual technique from a 7 year old. Maybe the 7
year old is precocious and has read a lot of books and seen a lot of
magazines, but he still has nothing to offer to an experienced adult.
Pretty much the same thing applies to you in this regard as you have
only made it to somewhere between second and third base in the IFR
realm. There are a lot of people on this group who are quite
experienced in IFR flight and I might be one of them. But I still
welcome the opportunity to learn from those who have earned my
respect. The IFR virgins should shut up, listen and learn.

Next time you're at the airport after passing your IFR check ride and
you happen to bump into your Instrument Instructor, first thing he'll
ask you is "did you get it wet yet?"

K l e i n
Keep the dirty side down (unless you're at the top of a loop)

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:becc28f3-ebc0-4793-
:

On May 17, 8:33 pm, More_Flaps wrote:
On May 18, 1:59 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
...
After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're
in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned.
Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was
clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow.

BS! In VFR the position of the horizon tells you the difference. In
many planes there is no AH 'cos you don't need it for VFR!
The engine noise also tells you if you are descending or climging.
Cheers

What you say is true, for a good experienced pilot,
who have flown disorientation exersizes.
But I'll provide this challenge, block off the speedometer
in your car and I'll bet you'll have a problem driving.
What happens to me is I drift up to 80 MPH, then
go "holy poop".
Ken

BULL ****.

There are only 3 required flight instruments. An AH is NOT one of them.
Many people learned to fly without an AH or DG. They were students, not
experienced pilots.

You are just as big an asshole as Anthony.