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#281
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I give up, after many, many years!
A Lieberman writes:
Read my ILS rational, where you feel the applied power to capture the glide slope. If you don't feel it in the seat of your pants, you got a bigger issue. If you are above the glide slope, and you reduce power, the lack of pressure in your butt should happen, but if the opposite happens, you have a problem. To capture the glide slope, you watch the needles on your instruments. Good example, though not likely, but very possible is having the trim set in the nose down position rather then nose up. Apply power and instead of maintaining level altitude, you just accelerated downhill and you wouldn't get that firm seat of the pants feeling. Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude, pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased lift, and thus produces a climb. The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants feeling doesn't bode well. This would be an extreme example, but very pluasible. Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. Your altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator will tell you about changes in speed. Remember, that the above sensations helps CONFIRM the instruments, NOT the other way around. No. The instruments confirm. The instruments are the final authority. If you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will only get you into trouble. You can't. Yes, you can. You can fly entirely with instruments. You _have to_ fly entirely with instruments in IMC. Doing anything else is dangerous. It's a combination that makes it all work. No combination is necessary. If you put 100 percent faith in instruments and ignore what I am describing above, then you are failing to recognize instrumentation or airplane setting errors, and that will lead to a not so good ending. Failing instruments in IMC usually lead to a not-so-good ending. The seat of your pants won't help you. It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference between landing at minimums or butching up an approach. No, it's instruments. Again, go up with an IA rated pilot, see what the real deal is all about. That hood just doesn't do it any justice, nor will any MSFS desktop simulator do it. This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. In the real world, in IMC, you fly by instruments. Look at the cowling, and it was straight and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing right turn. If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems than just failing instruments. In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear end. Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb. Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt, but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation) The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed. |
#282
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I give up, after many, many years!
Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation) Gotcha. That's quite a different "sensation" than the inner ear -- thanks for the clarification. However, I think many in this group are arguing right past MX, dismissing him out of hand simply because most of the respondents can't stand him. Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#283
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I give up, after many, many years!
On May 17, 9:37*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. *Power controls altitude, pitch controls speed. *At constant pitch, increased power produces increased lift, and thus produces a climb. Did you miss the part about the trim setting in a nose down position? The above answer is WRONG when you don't have the airplane configured correctly. Ignore your senses, you are dead. The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants feeling doesn't bode well. *This would be an extreme example, but very pluasible. Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. *Your altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator will tell you about changes in speed. Did you miss the part about the possibility of icing affecting the pitot static system? You fly a real plane as described above and ignore the seat of your pants sensation and you are dead. No. *The instruments confirm. *The instruments are the final authority.. *If you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will only get you into trouble. WRONG. Please RE-READ MY POST. You can't. Yes, you can. *You can fly entirely with instruments. *You _have to_ fly entirely with instruments in IMC. *Doing anything else is dangerous. It's a combination that makes it all work. No combination is necessary. WRONG. Until you get in a real plane, you have no experience to even comment on this thread. AGAIN, I use MSFS, and it does not compare one iota, so I am talking from experience both from the simulation part and flying a real airplane? Can you say this???? It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference between landing at minimums or butching up an approach. No, it's instruments. and if the instruments fail or glide slope fails or localizer? and you don't identify it with the seat of your pants? You are one dead puppy. This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. *In the real world, in IMC, you fly by instruments. WRONG. Take some flight lessons. Look at the cowling, and it was straight and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing right turn. If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems than just failing instruments. WRONG. Cowling is a visual reference point that just like my horizon indicator showed straight and level in IMC. If I followed your advice and trusted my instruments, I wouldn't be typing this post. I WOULD BE DEAD! In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear end. Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb. It is perfectly useable to verify climb. I never said rate of climb. Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt, but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation) The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed. WRONG. See above. |
#284
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I give up, after many, many years!
On May 17, 9:43*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC. Actually my point does! The fly by the seat of my pants did not feel like I had a 20 to 30 degree pitch up which my horizon indicator showed (which was waaaaaaaaay more then Vx pitch). Had I followed the horizon indicator and leveled the plane soley by the HI, I would have been in a 20 degee pitch down and augured it in. There was nothing accurate about my HI and it was my seat of the pants feeling that set all sorts of alarms and bells out in my head.. It was the seat of my pants that said no, don't trust the instrument, something just doesn't feel right and start looking at my secondary instruments for assistance. I saw my VSI at a 700 foot climb rate and 90 knot airspeed. In my Sundowner, that is my normal climb for 2000 feet MSL for a normal climb pitch. My DG regressed on the climb, so I had no true knowledge that I was even off the heading until I check the GPS ground track, and was only 10 degrees off my assigned heading. So, for bank information, I now had to switch from my DG to my GPS track as the HI was useless and my turn coordinator is out of my scan area. It was at this point I notified ATC that I had no vacuum system so if I had deviations, they would know something was not up to snuff on my end. Again, by flying by the seat of my pants and knowing how my plane feels at given stages of flight, that really saved my skin especially in the identify the problem stage! Had I taken Mx's advice and your implied advice, it wouldn't be a pretty picture if I "solely trusted my instruments" Had I trusted the instruments, I would have lowered the nose, airspeed builds and the rest is history. Allen |
#285
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I give up, after many, many years!
In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude, pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased lift, and thus produces a climb. And once again you parrot something you've read without the slightest understanding and absolutely no concept of context. The real world is not one or zero with everything black or white. Like a lot of what you spout, this is GENERALLY true, but not ALWAYS true. snip remaining babbling nonsense -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#286
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I give up, after many, many years!
In rec.aviation.piloting Jay Honeck wrote:
A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real flight. I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you feel? What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the window in VFR are you failing to understand? You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. MX is arguing that you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants -- which is 100% correct. You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window! If you'd have bothered to actually read the thread, VFR was specifically under discussion. MX shifts focus to suit his current arguement. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#287
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I give up, after many, many years!
On May 18, 1:59*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 17, 6:37 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote: A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real flight. I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you feel? What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the window in VFR are you failing to understand? You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. * MX is arguing that you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants -- which is 100% correct. You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window! God almighty, keep it up -- it's "Who's on first" all over again, and some pretty damned good Saturday night entertainment! :-) After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned. Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow. BS! In VFR the position of the horizon tells you the difference. In many planes there is no AH 'cos you don't need it for VFR! The engine noise also tells you if you are descending or climging. Cheers |
#288
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I give up, after many, many years!
On May 17, 8:33 pm, More_Flaps wrote:
On May 18, 1:59 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: .... After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned. Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow. BS! In VFR the position of the horizon tells you the difference. In many planes there is no AH 'cos you don't need it for VFR! The engine noise also tells you if you are descending or climging. Cheers What you say is true, for a good experienced pilot, who have flown disorientation exersizes. But I'll provide this challenge, block off the speedometer in your car and I'll bet you'll have a problem driving. What happens to me is I drift up to 80 MPH, then go "holy poop". Ken |
#289
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I give up, after many, many years!
On May 17, 8:43*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt, but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation) Gotcha. *That's quite a different "sensation" than the inner ear -- thanks for the clarification. However, I think many in this group are arguing right past MX, dismissing him out of hand simply because most of the respondents can't stand him. Your point that seat of the pants pressure sensations are used during instrument flight does not disprove MX's point about the necessity of relying primarily on your instruments for accurate information in IMC. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Jay, folks in this group dismiss his ideas about instrument flight in the same way that someone who's been married for over 40 years would dismiss a lecture on sexual technique from a 7 year old. Maybe the 7 year old is precocious and has read a lot of books and seen a lot of magazines, but he still has nothing to offer to an experienced adult. Pretty much the same thing applies to you in this regard as you have only made it to somewhere between second and third base in the IFR realm. There are a lot of people on this group who are quite experienced in IFR flight and I might be one of them. But I still welcome the opportunity to learn from those who have earned my respect. The IFR virgins should shut up, listen and learn. Next time you're at the airport after passing your IFR check ride and you happen to bump into your Instrument Instructor, first thing he'll ask you is "did you get it wet yet?" K l e i n Keep the dirty side down (unless you're at the top of a loop) |
#290
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I give up, after many, many years!
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