If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Hi James,
Thanks for your feedback. I think we are talking about two different generations of Piper / Mitchell autopilots. Mine is an Altimatic II, installed in a 1964 Piper Aztec. It obviously is original equipment, factory installed. All the electronics are composed of germanium transistors, so that also dates it. My info all comes directly from the Piper Service Manual entitled "Autocontrol I & II, Altimatic I & II Service Manual". The Piper part number is 753 798 with a first publish date of June 1961. It contains permanent revisions numbered PR710920 and PR721020, dated September 20, 1971 and October 20, 1972, respectively. There are also pages with various dates between these dates. The 10Mhz frequency information is contained in the theory of operation section and it describes in good detail the construction and operation of the roll vane in the AI. It shows it as being composed of an Iron Ferrite piece on one side and of an Aluminum piece on the other. As the aircraft banks to the Iron side, it says the inductance of the circuit is increased and when it banks to the Aluminum side, the inductance of the circuit decreases. It also details a similar pickup in the AI for pitch and a variable capacitor in the DG, variable capacitors in the each servo's "follow-up" circuit and variable capacitors in the amplifier and control console. It goes step by step on how a change in bank and a change in pitch and altitude changes each reactive component and how all of the these reactive components work together to maintain a given resonant frequency. Maybe the 10MHz figure is just an example - I have not measured the frequency. However, the roll and pitch servos in my 1964 Aztec definitely have the feedback or "follow-up" capacitors. I've seen them with my own eyes and checked their timing marks to see if they are lined up properly. There are RF type variable capacitors in the control console and in the console amplifier to adjust the circuit reactance (level the wings and level the pitch). There is also an RF type variable cap in the altitude bellows assembly to detect a change in pressure altitude. The trim-turn and pitch controls on my control console are also variable caps, along with an altitude / pitch offset adjustment. The amp has two cans which look like IF transformers with paper labels on them that state "Do not adjust discriminator". The whole thing is connected together with coax cables and the service manual is clear about using the proper length and type of cables otherwise the resonant frequency will be shifted. The service manual shows a drawing of these cable as being composed of a hollow tube that contains a curly wire on the inside and a braided shield on the outside. The whole thing is covered with an outer jacket of rubber or plastic material. It reminds me of the radio antenna coax used in automobiles in the 1960s. When I went looking for an instrument shop to overall my AI, I ran into several that stated they would not work on "those old RF type gyros". All of this taken together makes me believe that the system does in fact use an RF signal as the method to detect changes in pitch and bank and to detect the position of the servos. From the limited information I can find, it appears that the later Mitchell / Piper versions switched to the pickup system that you describe. Maybe this was the Autocontrol IIB / Altimatic IIB and later versions? I don't know. I wish I had a schematic of my console amplifier. My service manual is lacking in this area. It treats the amplifier as a black box. It does provide a schematic of the radio coupler, but no theory of operation information, or other useful info like the excitation frequency it supplies to the DG, voltage levels, etc. Any information you'd care to share along those lines would be greatly appreciated. Just FYI, the earliest Autocontrol and Altimatic systems used what the service manual refers to as a "0" heading directional gyro. This device did not allow a specific heading to be selected, but rather just indicated a change in heading which was used to keep the wings level. Also, these early models had amplifier modules attached to the back of the AI and to the back of the DG. There was no central "console" amplifier. When I first got the service manual and saw this, I knew these didn't exist in my airplane and thought there were missing components. However, as I dug in more, I finally figured out that these were consolidated in a later version and that the DG was changed to a resolver type wired to the radio coupler rather than the older RF type wired to the autopilot amplifier. What is the excitation frequency of the radio coupler to the DG in the later Mitchell / Piper autopilots? Maybe it is the same in mine. FYI, my coupler has a 4-pin Amphelnol connector for the radio input and a 9-pin Amphenol connector for connection to the DG and autopilot amplifier. In my case, the coupler could not be eliminated from the system by simply moving connectors around. I'd be happy to learn all you're willing to teach me about these things. If you have any schematics or theory of operations on the early Autocontrol / Altimatic I/II amplifiers and/or on the early radio couplers, I'd really appreciate getting a copy. Ronnie "jmk" wrote in message ups.com... Hmmm... I have to admit, that's quite a bit different than a standard Autocontrol (aka Century) for a normal Piper system - and I would ask if you are sure of your information? The standard "wing level" indication from the AH is indeed off a pickup coil, but it's about 5 KHz, no RF. And there is no frequency shift - the inside of the Century AH/AI just has two coils and a metal plate behind them (looks like an iron butterfly). As the thing shifts from one side to the other you get a shift in amplitude, either in phase or out of phase (180 degrees) with respect to the ROLL EXCITATION signal. [Or the HDG EXCITATION signal, if it goes through the nav coupler.] With the AH centered in roll, the amplitutde is zero. There is no frequency shift regardless. It would be great if there was some sensor back from the ailerons, but there isn't - so it has no way of knowing their position. Having said all the above, your "list of the usual suspects" is the same one I would come up with. #3 is the one that surprises most folks, but if you have a nav coupler then it uses HDG EXCITATION to drive the ROLL coils, so lose of HDG signal affects just operating in the WINGS LEVEL mode. You can move the ROLL cable that goes from the computer to the NAV Coupler to go to the AI instead and restore use of ROLL EXCITATION for a test. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Clearly that is quite different. I suspect that RFI may have been one of the reasons they went to the much lower frequencies... FYI, my coupler has a 4-pin Amphelnol connector for the radio input and a 9-pin Amphenol connector for connection to the DG and autopilot amplifier. In my case, the coupler could not be eliminated from the system by simply moving connectors around. Too bad. With the Century (aka Autocontrol) units the basic "computer" plugs in to the AH and you have wing leveler capability. If you have the right DG (i.e. with the heading bug) then a second cable plugs into the DG and you now have heading control as well. [Hence the separate ROLL EXCITATION and HDG EXCITATION.] When they added the little NAV Coupler unit, all that was needed there was to unplug the computer's DG cable from the DG and plug it into the NAV Coupler. The NAV coupler then had a cable that went out to the DG. With the NAV Coupler in HDG mode, it was essentially then just a pass-through. The DG signals basically went through the NAV Coupler as if it was nothing but an extension cord. [Except, as another poster mentioned, the NAV Coupler still generated a new version of the EXCITATION signal.] With the NAV coupler in tracking mode, it simply took the DG offset, played the same "in/out of phase" game that the computer normally would to provide an offset, added in the offset from whatever L-R signal it was tracking, chopped it back up, and sent the new sine wave back to the computer. The computer never knew it was tracking anything but the DG heading bug. [BTW, all the nav coupler tracking modes are just variations on a theme. The LOC mode (Localizer) just has a different divider resistor on the L-R so the sensitivity is changed. The OMNI vs. NAV mode just adds a capacitor to slow up it's ability to respond to quick changes in the L-R signal. And the LOC Backcourse? Yup... the switch just switches the L-R input wires so that it responds backwards.] [I'd be happy to learn all you're willing to teach me about these things. If you have any schematics or theory of operations on the early Autocontrol / Altimatic I/II amplifiers and/or on the early radio couplers, I'd really appreciate getting a copy. ] A while back I scanned in the schematics for the Autocontrol computers and the NAV coupler. I don't know if they are still around or not (really poor quality originals). I'll try to see if I can find them. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Looking forward to your findings Bill. Reason being, the Autocontrol
III in our Arrow only works in heading bug mode. I'm interested to know how much time/money you wind up putting into your repair. It would be nice to have ours work in all modes but I'm not so sure I'd want to spend more than a couple tenths of an AMU on it. -- Jack Allison PP-ASEL-IA Student Arrow N2104T "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail) |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
On 02/18/06 13:58, Jack Allison wrote:
Looking forward to your findings Bill. Reason being, the Autocontrol III in our Arrow only works in heading bug mode. I'm interested to know how much time/money you wind up putting into your repair. It would be nice to have ours work in all modes but I'm not so sure I'd want to spend more than a couple tenths of an AMU on it. Sheesh - can you even get a tire changed for that much? .... by the way, it costs me nuthin' to get a tire changed ;-) On the other hand, the mixture control is bottoming out against the firewall and the maintenance folks believe this is working correctly ;-\ -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Mark Hansen wrote:
Sheesh - can you even get a tire changed for that much? Dunno...but will find out soon as the nose wheel is due. Stay tuned. ... by the way, it costs me nuthin' to get a tire changed ;-) Hehe...ya, and you don't need to wipe bugs off the plane after each flight either. OTOH, I can be a hangar rat whenever I want. :-) On the other hand, the mixture control is bottoming out against the firewall and the maintenance folks believe this is working correctly ;-\ Hmmm, I like our maintenance program better, even if we can't get a tire changed for free :-) -- Jack Allison PP-ASEL-IA Student Arrow N2104T "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail) |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
On 02/18/06 16:51, Jack Allison wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote: Sheesh - can you even get a tire changed for that much? Dunno...but will find out soon as the nose wheel is due. Stay tuned. ... by the way, it costs me nuthin' to get a tire changed ;-) Hehe...ya, and you don't need to wipe bugs off the plane after each flight either. OTOH, I can be a hangar rat whenever I want. :-) Oh, it's true, it's true ... I have no hangar On the other hand, the mixture control is bottoming out against the firewall and the maintenance folks believe this is working correctly ;-\ Hmmm, I like our maintenance program better, even if we can't get a tire changed for free :-) I can't argue with that. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Jack Allison wrote: Looking forward to your findings Bill. Reason being, the Autocontrol III in our Arrow only works in heading bug mode. Are you saying it doesn't work in ROLL mode, but does work in HDG mode? Unusual, but if so then it's a pretty simple fix. The HDG switch essentially disables the ROLL pot, so if it works okay in HDG but not in ROLL, then either the switch is bad, or the POT is bad, not much else involved. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
jmk wrote:
Are you saying it doesn't work in ROLL mode, but does work in HDG mode? Unusual, but if so then it's a pretty simple fix. The HDG switch essentially disables the ROLL pot, so if it works okay in HDG but not in ROLL, then either the switch is bad, or the POT is bad, not much else involved. Sorry, I should have clarified. Heading mode works, roll works (sort of, I'll explain in a sec.). It is the other modes (NAV, OMNI, LOC, LOC back course) that don't work. For roll mode, if I turn the round roll knob slightly one direction, the ailerons keep moving to the stops. If the knob is centered though, the ailerons stay centered. I've only tried this on the ground. In the air, heading mode works fine but none of the other modes mentioned above. -- Jack Allison PP-ASEL-IA Student Arrow N2104T "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail) |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
I thought that is the way it is supposed to work on the ground. I thought,
and I might be wrong on this, that the roll pot set a desired angle of bank, not a desired aileron position. Next time I have some time, I will check this out. Just another data point for consideration: My auto pilot was not working right on my arrow when I bought it ( or should I say it always worked "right"). It would turn to the right in VOR/LOC modes. I had the shop look at it along with other items on my squawk list. They fixed it with no parts and about an hour of labor. I don't know what the problem was. Just goes to show you that autopilots are not always expensive to get fixed. It is definitely worth having someone look at it. "Jack Allison" wrote in message ... jmk wrote: Are you saying it doesn't work in ROLL mode, but does work in HDG mode? Unusual, but if so then it's a pretty simple fix. The HDG switch essentially disables the ROLL pot, so if it works okay in HDG but not in ROLL, then either the switch is bad, or the POT is bad, not much else involved. Sorry, I should have clarified. Heading mode works, roll works (sort of, I'll explain in a sec.). It is the other modes (NAV, OMNI, LOC, LOC back course) that don't work. For roll mode, if I turn the round roll knob slightly one direction, the ailerons keep moving to the stops. If the knob is centered though, the ailerons stay centered. I've only tried this on the ground. In the air, heading mode works fine but none of the other modes mentioned above. -- Jack Allison PP-ASEL-IA Student Arrow N2104T "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return" - Leonardo Da Vinci (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail) |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
AUTOPILOT AWRY
Jack Allison wrote:
jmk wrote: Are you saying it doesn't work in ROLL mode, but does work in HDG mode? Unusual, but if so then it's a pretty simple fix. The HDG switch essentially disables the ROLL pot, so if it works okay in HDG but not in ROLL, then either the switch is bad, or the POT is bad, not much else involved. Sorry, I should have clarified. Heading mode works, roll works (sort of, I'll explain in a sec.). It is the other modes (NAV, OMNI, LOC, LOC back course) that don't work. For roll mode, if I turn the round roll knob slightly one direction, the ailerons keep moving to the stops. If the knob is centered though, the ailerons stay centered. I've only tried this on the ground. In the air, heading mode works fine but none of the other modes mentioned above. That's OK - the autopilot rolls till the roll feedback from the horizon gyro matches the request from the pot. You're ordering a certain amount of roll. If the horizon does not follow, turn more on the ailerons till the order is fulfilled. -- Tauno Voipio (CPL(A) - avionics engineer) tauno voipio (at) iki fi |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
KAP140 autopilot and a KLN94 GPS question | STICKMONKE | Instrument Flight Rules | 5 | November 12th 05 04:06 AM |
mitchell autopilot | dave | Owning | 1 | May 5th 04 06:11 PM |
IMC without an autopilot | Jon Kraus | Instrument Flight Rules | 101 | April 18th 04 07:17 PM |
Chelton AP-3C autopilot | Kyler Laird | Owning | 0 | April 2nd 04 03:08 PM |
KAP140 Autopilot Details | News | Instrument Flight Rules | 27 | October 22nd 03 02:01 AM |