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#61
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David Megginson wrote in message ...
Either Piper spin-tested the other models and found them unsatisfactory, or else the test pilots wouldn't even try spinning them in the first place (because of engineering predictions). Neither thought makes me too comfortable. Piper spin tested the "stretched" models. They had to as part of the certification testing. That's a whole different ballgame than approval for intentional spins. Oddly enough, the original stretched models were not restricted from intentional spins when they 1st came out. Spin approval was rescinded for those models a few years later by AD. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#62
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G.R. Patterson III wrote:
I would think it's pretty much a legal issue. I don't think so. Two CFIs were killed near Solberg a few years ago when a spin went flat. I think they were flying a Cherokee. I've spun (with utility loading) a '68 PA28-180 that wasn't placarded against it. It didn't spin well. By that I mean it was _really_ uninterested in entering a spin; stick back full stall (well, mush) and full rudder made it want to spiral. A jab of throttle was needed to convince it to wallow over and spin. Recovery was normal and uneventful. Some PA28's (notably later ones) are placarded against spins, I suspect because some CG loadings may make recovery -er- difficult. |
#63
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On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:17:51 -0500, "JJS" jschneider@REMOVE THIS SPAM
BLOCKpldi.net wrote: Same here! My 2150 pound g.w. 1966 Cherokee has the same placard on the panel. It also has four seats. I pulled out the flight manual, also. Mine is a 1966 year model too. |
#64
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m... "John Galban" wrote in message om... I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the Utility Category. Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151 and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category. The PA-28-140, -180, -181 are certificated in the utility category For those models that are certificated with for utility category operations. 1. You have to get the CG in the utility envelope. 2. You have to not have the 2150 gross weight increase.on the -140. 3. There is a serial number limit on the -180 for utility category operations. 4. You can only use the two front seats. Oh, and by the way, I forgot one important thing. If your PA-28 can be operated in the utility category, it will be placarded as such (with the gross weight for that category). That's perhaps the easiest way to tell (provided your aircraft is airworthy). We need to be very careful here -- just because an airplane is approved for operation in the Utility Category does NOT mean it is certified for intentional spins! Here's how certification works in this regard: Normal Category operation -- intentional spins are NOT approved; Acrobatic Category operation -- intentional spins ARE apporved; Utility Category operation -- intentional spins MAY or MAY NOT be approved, depending on whether or not the manufacturer elects (and it is up to the manufacturer to choose) to spin test as if in the Normal category or as if in the Acrobatic category. That said, here's what I've got for the Piper PA-28-140 and PA-28-180 airplanes, excerpted from my stall/spin due for publication in 2004. Hope this helps, Rich http://www.richstowell.com -------start of excerpt-------- The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness Copyright (c) 2003 by Rich Stowell Chapter 16 THE TRUTH ABOUT MANUFACTURER-SUPPLIED INFORMATION CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-140 Piper PA-28-140 models (a.k.a.: Cherokee Warriors, Cruisers, and Executives) were produced under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved documents are required on board all of these airplanes. The associated TCDS refer to flight manuals approved prior to June 16, 1976 as AFM's, but as POH's thereafter. The PA-28-140 was certificated as a dual category airplane. Intentional spins are not approved when in the Normal part of its operating envelope; intentional spins are approved, however, when in the Utility part of its operating envelope. The earliest approved AFM's issued were sparse in operating details. One version of AFM Report VB-160, revised in March 1964 for example, required the following placard: For Spin Recovery, Use Full Rudder Against Spin, Followed Immediately By Forward Wheel. Power and aileron settings are not mentioned here. The Procedures Section offers no advice relevant to spinning the airplane, even though intentional spins are approved when in the Utility envelope. By comparison, the June 1976 version of the PA-28-140 flight manual (Report VB-770), now called a POH, contains a separate Emergency Procedures section with the following information: If a spin is inadvertently entered, immediately move the throttle to idle and the ailerons to neutral. Full rudder should then be applied opposite to the direction of rotation followed by control wheel full forward. When the rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and ease back on the control wheel as required to smoothly regain a level flight attitude. This POH also includes a sequential spin recovery checklist: Throttle...idle Ailerons...neutral Rudder...full opposite to direction of rotation Control wheel...full forward Similar to the Cessna 150 series, the quality and depth of spin information provided to pilots flying the Piper PA-28-140 certainly was an evolving process. A rash of spin accidents in PA-28-140's, however, prompted the issuance of Service Bulletin No. 753 in December 1982. The four-page bulletin, affecting all PA-28-140's built, included expanded spin information and was to be kept in the airplanes at all times. It seems pilots generally were unaware just how critical it was that this airplane be in the spins-approved Utility envelope when performing spins. Cross the line into the spins-prohibited Normal envelope--even a little bit--and the airplane could become unrecoverable from the spin. Which hole the front seats were adjusted into literally could be the difference between recovering and spinning into the ground. Accurately assessing weight and center of gravity in the Piper PA-28-140 is absolutely imperative. Yet little in the flight manuals or the flight training environment drove home the seriousness of this point. The Service Bulletin also contained practical information about spinning the airplane: The spin should be entered from a power-off glide.... The ailerons must remain neutral throughout the spin and recovery, since aileron application may alter the spin characteristics to the degree that the spin is broken prematurely or that recovery is delayed... For spin recovery: 1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the direction of rotation. 2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the control wheel full forward and be ready to relax the forward pressure when the spin rotation has stopped. 3. As rotation stops, neutralize the rudder and smoothly recover from the dive. Normal recoveries may take up to 1-1/2 turns when proper technique is used; improper techniques can increase the turns to recover and the resulting altitude loss. The Service Bulletin goes on to offer additional advice on spinning: Application of full aft control wheel and full rudder before the airplane stalls is not recommended as it results in large changes in pitch attitude during entry and the first turn of the spin. The recommended procedure has been designed to minimize turns and altitude loss during recovery.... The immediate effect of applying normal recovery controls may be an appreciable steepening of the nose down attitude and an increase in rate of spin rotation. It is essential to maintain full anti-spin rudder and to continue to hold the control wheel full forward until the spin stops.... Delay in moving the control wheel forward may result in the aircraft entering a very fast, steep spin mode which could disorient a pilot.... depending on the control column position [when the airplane recovers], it may be necessary to move the column partially back almost immediately to avoid an unnecessarily steep nose down attitude, possible negative "g" forces and excessive loss of altitude. Finally, solid information. But pilots either weren't getting the message, or still didn't understand the critical nature of weight and balance on spin behavior. Another bulletin, Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin, ACE-97-02, had to be issued as a result. The purpose was to advise pilots again of the need to comply with the Service Bulletin issued nearly 15 years earlier: Issuance of SB 753 was prompted by reports of spin training accidents; recent events have indicated that the procedures presented in the SB are not being followed or are/were not known to the participants in the events. Spins must be performed correctly or the results can be disastrous. All aspects of the spin maneuver must be understood including: weight and balance, airspeed control, altitude required, spin entry procedures, spin recovery procedures, etc. An unsafe and deadly condition can develop rapidly if all of these aspects are not taken into account. All of the information contained in the 1982 Service Bulletin is then reprinted in the 1997 Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin.... CASE STUDY -- PIPER PA-28-180 Like the PA-28-140, the Piper PA-28-180 (a.k.a.: Piper Archer) was manufactured under TC No. 2A13. FAA-approved flight manuals are required (referred to as AFM's in the TCDS). Intentional spins are prohibited in this airplane. The different versions of the Piper PA-28-180 FAA-approved AFM's are cross-referenced with Report Numbers. The Procedures Section of Report VB-163, revised 10/20/1964, reads as follows: 3. The PA 28-180 is approved under FAA Regulation CAR3 which prohibits intentional spins. The following information is noteworthy: a. The stall characteristics...are normal.... b. Prolonged use of full rudder during stall practice may result in a rapid roll followed by a spin and should be avoided. Recovery from an incipient spin may be effected in less than one additional turn by use of opposite rudder followed by full forward control wheel. c. In the event that a fully developed spin is inadvertently experienced, recovery is best made by using full opposite rudder followed by full forward wheel and full opposite aileron. The control positions against the spin should be maintained during the entire recovery, which may require several turns and a substantial loss of altitude if the airplane is located [sic] heavily with a rearward center of gravity. This same information (sans the typo) is carried through both Report VB-210 issued in April 1969, and Report VB-558 issued in July 1973. The Owner's Handbook supplementing Report VB-210 lists the following in Section IV: Intentional spins are prohibited in this aircraft. If a spin is inadvertently entered, immediately use the following recovery procedures: 1. Throttle - Idle 2. Rudder – Full opposite to direction of rotation 3. Control Wheel – Full forward 4. Rudder – Neutral (when rotation stops 5. Control Wheel – As required to smoothly regain level flight attitude. The recommendations in the supplementary Owner's Handbook don't conflict with anything contained in the approved Report VB-210. The two documents merely provide different levels of information. For instance, both are consistent regarding the sequencing of rudder and elevator. The supplemental Owner's Manual calls for idle throttle; the approved AFM doesn't mention throttle at all. The Owner's Manual makes no distinction between incipient and developed spins; just as in VB-163, however, AFM Report VB-210 recommends the use of opposite aileron, but only during recovery from a developed spin. Let's zero in on this aileron issue. The Piper PA-28-180 was certificated under CAR3, spins prohibited. The airplane was only required to demonstrate recovery from one-turn spins within one additional turn to satisfy the standards in effect at the time. The manufacturer wasn't required to spin test the airplane beyond one turn--that is, spend additional time and money on it. Did a test pilot in fact perform developed spins during testing? If so, why? Did Piper want to certify the airplane as "spins-approved" in the Utility Category, but the airplane just couldn't satisfy the six-turn spin test criteria? Or did a test pilot add a couple of multiple turn spins simply "to see what it'd do"? The AFM implies that the PA-28-180 will recover from a developed spin in several turns, but does it recover in part because of, or in spite of, the recommended opposite aileron input? Could it be that no developed spins were done at all, and the AFM's recommendation is a best guess? The above questions aside, opposite ailerons tend to generate flat spins in light airplanes. Where do you think airshow performers place the ailerons for the dramatic flat spins demonstrated at airshows? Moreover, certification criteria in effect at the time specifically required airplanes like the Piper PA-28-180 to recover using "normal recovery controls." The Type Certification Spin Test Procedures (AC 23-1) issued in April 1964 states, "All spin recoveries should be made using the NASA spin recovery technique [consisting of] ailerons in neutral position, full opposite rudder to stop rotation, followed by forward elevator control as required..." The context in which the Piper PA-28-180 AFM recommends opposite aileron appears highly suspect. Practically speaking, a pilot departing into an accidental spin in this airplane had better react long before it stabilizes in a developed spin. And that pilot should react with NASA Standard spin recovery actions, applied per the PARE® checklist. One last item: Seventy-nine Piper PA-28-180's rolled off the assembly line at one point with placards to the effect that intentional spins were approved when in actuality, intentional spins are NOT approved. This prompted the issuance of an Airworthiness Directive (Amendment 39-2047, effective December 21, 1974) requesting removal of the incorrect placard and replacement with the correct one. Mistakes do happen, but seldom could an error as seemingly innocuous as dropping the word "NOT" have such enormous ramifications: Proven spin and recovery capability are implicit in the phrase, "Spins Approved," whereas unproven and potentially lethal spin behavior are implicit in the phrase "Spins Not Approved." ----------end of excerpt-------- |
#65
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#66
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"Rich Stowell" wrote in message om... We need to be very careful here -- just because an airplane is approved for operation in the Utility Category does NOT mean it is certified for intentional spins! That is correct, but if it's not approved in the utility category it is almost certainly NOT approved for spins. Furhter, there may be further restrictions on the spinning than just the utility category loading. For example, the Cherokees prohibit anything from being in the baggage compartment while spinning. |
#67
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m... "John Galban" wrote in message om... I've flown and spun 150/160s that were approved for spins in the Utility Category. Let me be more exact. The PA-28-150 and PA-28-160 are NOT certficated in the utility category, hence no spins. The PA-28-151 and PA-28-161 are certificated in the utility category. snip BTW - I checked my logbook and you were absolutely correct. Turns out the planes I mentioned above were 150 and 160 hp versions of the -140. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) |
#68
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#70
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"Steve House" writes:
Unless you're training for the PPL here in Canada, where spins and recovery are part of the required syllabus at about lesson 11. Transport Canada removed spin training from the syllabus in the late 1990's (I don't know the exact year). It was not part of my PPL training in 2002. As far as I understand (*not* confirmed from an official source), there were two problems with spin training: 1. The stall/spin accident rate was slightly higher in Canada than the U.S., despite the fact that all Canadian PPL holders had spin training and most U.S. PPL holders did not. 2. There were occasional training fatalities during spin training, including one where the rudder in a 152 jumped its stop and jammed past full deflection. Given #1, there was no justification for the deaths in #2 (even if they were fairly rare). All the best, David |
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