TRSA and /X

Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Bob Gardner wrote:
AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA. The main
difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former required
participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA is sort of
"in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D (no radar
services).

As for why participation is optional, well that's sort of like asking why
participation in radar services is optional in Class E airspace. Do you ask
that question? I suppose you (or someone else) might, but I don't.

The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough traffic
to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C, or Class B
for that matter). It's really just Class E airspace, where radar services
are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center (enroute)
controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's the basic
idea).

The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.

I suppose you might ask why, if there's not that much traffic, there's a
terminal radar facility. Usually the answer to that question has to do with
the type of aircraft using the airspace (and usually an airport within that
airspace). But I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to that question does
vary with facility (and no, I don't know the answer for every situation).

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?


They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.

The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.

The main
difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former required
participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA is sort of
"in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D (no radar
services).

It's not an inbetween anything. It's not a class of controlled
airspace. Just a charted area where you could get radar services
(which isn't limitted to TRSA's by the way, we have some airports
in the area with approach controls in their class D's that bear
at most a telltale R in their sectioanl data bock).

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.

They both predate, and are left-over from, the relevant time periods.

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.

I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E airspace,
which certainly is controlled airspace.

It's not an inbetween anything.

You are welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. It provides a
higher level of service than that offered by most towers in Class D
airspace, and a lower level of service than that offered by radar facilities
in Class C airspace.

To me, that's exactly what "in-between" means

It's not a class of controlled airspace.

It is a region within Class E airspace where a slightly different type of
radar service is offered from that normally found in Class E airspace. I
would be amazed if there was a TRSA outside of controlled airspace.

Just a charted area where you could get radar services
(which isn't limitted to TRSA's by the way, we have some airports
in the area with approach controls in their class D's that bear
at most a telltale R in their sectioanl data bock).

I certainly don't disagree with your last sentence. That doesn't mean a
TRSA isn't in controlled airspace though.

Pete

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

It's not an inbetween anything. It's not a class of controlled airspace.

They're not a class of controlled airspace, that's certainly true, but TRSA
services are definitely in-between Basic Radar services and Class C
services.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.


Actually, they're left over from an even earlier time.



The main difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former
required participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the TRSA
is sort of "in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D
(no radar services).


TRSAs provide a service in-between Class C service and Basic Radar service.
There are some terminal radar facilities that do not have Class B or Class C
airspace and are not TRSAs, these facilities provide Basic Radar service.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22812C3B



The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough
traffic to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C, or
Class B for that matter).


But TRSAs do not exist at all such locations. Facilities that provide Basic
Radar service are identified on sectional charts by a small blue circle with
an R in it near the airport name.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3E722C3B



It's really just Class E airspace, where radar
services are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center
(enroute) controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's
the basic idea).


It's Class D and Class E airspace.



The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.


That's not correct. The charted TRSA boundary is well within the
center/approach boundary. The terminal facility provides services on both
sides of the TRSA boundary, probably by the same controller as well.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to the AIM, TRSAs provide
separation between participating VFR aircraft. In class C airspace, there
is only separation between VFR & IFR aircraft. The AIM makes it sound like
TRSAs offer participating aircraft a higher level of separation services
than class C radar services.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are left-over from when Class C airspace was called an ARSA.


Actually, they're left over from an even earlier time.



The main difference between an ARSA and a TRSA was that the former
required participation, while the latter did not. Then, and now, the
TRSA
is sort of "in-between" Class C (mandatory radar services) and Class D
(no radar services).


TRSAs provide a service in-between Class C service and Basic Radar
service.
There are some terminal radar facilities that do not have Class B or Class
C
airspace and are not TRSAs, these facilities provide Basic Radar service.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R22812C3B



The bottom line here is that TRSAs exist where there's a terminal radar
facility (approach/departure control), but where there's not enough
traffic to justify mandatory participation (as is the case for Class C,
or
Class B for that matter).


But TRSAs do not exist at all such locations. Facilities that provide
Basic
Radar service are identified on sectional charts by a small blue circle
with
an R in it near the airport name.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3E722C3B



It's really just Class E airspace, where radar
services are being provided by a terminal controller rather than a center
(enroute) controller (that's a bit of an oversimplification too, but it's
the basic idea).


It's Class D and Class E airspace.



The boundaries show you where the terminal controller provides the radar
services rather than the center controller. The only difference in radar
services is who is providing them; it's still just your run-of-the-mill
Class E services, which are optional wherever you are.


That's not correct. The charted TRSA boundary is well within the
center/approach boundary. The terminal facility provides services on both
sides of the TRSA boundary, probably by the same controller as well.

The explanation is in the AIM reference.

Bob

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist? Seems like a
dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the concept of
a voluntary controlled airspace? Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

--
Guy Elden Jr.

Bob Gardner wrote:
AIM 3-5-6 says that participation by VFR pilots is voluntary...and for
IFR
pilots, TRSA's don't even exist in Part 71.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Is VFR participation by a non transponder equipped aircraft
encouraged/permitted in a TRSA?

Thanks.