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Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course



 
 
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  #71  
Old August 1st 20, 04:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,033
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 5:58:09 PM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
How can you land out on a flight with a glider that is averaging 83 to 1 glide over the entire flight?? (See the OLC link at top.)To me that would be almost like having a motor. Seems like really bad planning.


Never flown out west eh? Long runs at very high L/D are common out here, high and under the clouds. But the day eventually ends and then it is back to reality. There is almost never any lift over Lake Tahoe. The bad planning was entering the Tahoe basin with insufficient altitude to retreat.

I believe the landing was on the 1st and 2nd fairway. These line up along State 267. The other golf course landing we have had was when Gavin Wills landed a DuoDiscus on North Lake Tahoe golf course. That is considerably more open, far fewer trees - but also another 10 miles further across the lake.
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  #72  
Old August 1st 20, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 524
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #73  
Old August 2nd 20, 11:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul B[_2_]
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Posts: 59
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion.

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


  #74  
Old August 2nd 20, 12:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 524
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 03:39:34 -0700, Paul B wrote:

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one
looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight
turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know
what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base
halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

If you have Google Earth or similar, go he
52° 5'32.77"N 0° 7'43.46"E

Take a look at the situation. From the video it looks as though he was
flying a left-hand circuit, with the downwind leg on the north of the
airfield. This means that there was an easterly, so they would have
crossed the motorway immediately after takeoff. The main runway was
shortened when the M11 motorway was built across it in 1977, 1200ft from
its eastern end.

Here I'm guessing but its likely the formation formed up ENE from the
airfield, maybe somewhere south of Whittlesford or Pampisford, ready for
a pass down runway 24.

Turning in early wouldn't have been a good idea with lots of buildings to
cross: you can see them off to his left in the video and doing so would
also have meant flying over a lot of spectators, so definitely a no-no.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the
situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the
discussion.

I thought the pilot said he considered and discarded that option. Reason
left unsaid, but buildings and lots of people would have been a good
enough reason for that.

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51,
but is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with
the pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by
a very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his
thought processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #75  
Old August 2nd 20, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,235
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

I recall hearing the pilot say that he had his gear up to extend his
glide and someone yelled on the radio about that.* In the heat of the
moment the radio call made him turn away from the airport.

On 8/2/2020 5:41 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 03:39:34 -0700, Paul B wrote:

Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one
looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight
turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know
what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base
halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

If you have Google Earth or similar, go he
52° 5'32.77"N 0° 7'43.46"E

Take a look at the situation. From the video it looks as though he was
flying a left-hand circuit, with the downwind leg on the north of the
airfield. This means that there was an easterly, so they would have
crossed the motorway immediately after takeoff. The main runway was
shortened when the M11 motorway was built across it in 1977, 1200ft from
its eastern end.

Here I'm guessing but its likely the formation formed up ENE from the
airfield, maybe somewhere south of Whittlesford or Pampisford, ready for
a pass down runway 24.

Turning in early wouldn't have been a good idea with lots of buildings to
cross: you can see them off to his left in the video and doing so would
also have meant flying over a lot of spectators, so definitely a no-no.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the
situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the
discussion.

I thought the pilot said he considered and discarded that option. Reason
left unsaid, but buildings and lots of people would have been a good
enough reason for that.

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51,
but is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with
the pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by
a very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his
thought processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM



--
Dan, 5J
  #76  
Old August 2nd 20, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:39:36 AM UTC-5, Paul B wrote:
Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion.

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


  #77  
Old August 2nd 20, 05:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,505
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

He could safely turn tighter by letting the speed increase as he banked more; put
another way, maintain his angle of attack (NOT the airspeed) as he increases the bank.

wrote on 8/2/2020 8:34 AM:
He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:39:36 AM UTC-5, Paul B wrote:
Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion.

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #78  
Old August 2nd 20, 07:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

I must be missing something. He has no excess altitude to convert to speed.. He has no engine to add thrust. So, exactly how is he supposed to increase speed?

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 11:46:24 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
He could safely turn tighter by letting the speed increase as he banked more; put
another way, maintain his angle of attack (NOT the airspeed) as he increases the bank.

res wrote on 8/2/2020 8:34 AM:
He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:39:36 AM UTC-5, Paul B wrote:
Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion..

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


  #79  
Old August 2nd 20, 08:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 524
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 08:34:47 -0700, resigler wrote:

He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low
airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine
guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of
attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which
increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed
stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

That, by itself was an interesting remark, to me anyway.

For several years I've gone to the "Little Gransden Charity Air & Car
Show", in part because its a small field, so displaying aircraft are
quite close and the tiedown area is very close. It also gets an amazing
collection of aircraft. Te Vulcan (when it was flying, BBMF aircraft and
Memphis Bell have all displayed there, along with a couple of P-51s.

Anyway, because the displays are close in, the blast of sound as a P-51
pulls G is quite obvious. I always wondered what caused it since I've not
heard any other aircraft make that noise. Now I know what it is: the gun-
barrels whistling at high AOA.

BTW, when I say Little Gransden is small, think Old Reinbeck - those
living near NYC will know what I mean. If you want to see what it's like,
here's the reference: 52° 9'58.11"N 0° 9'0.54"W The single grass strip
is 2500ft and there's usually at least one P-51 on the field during the
airshow.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #80  
Old August 2nd 20, 09:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,505
Default Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

The tighter turn works for gliders after a rope break, so I'm thinking (as did
Paul B), it would work for the P51 pilot.

There is an optimum bank for minimizing the loss of altitude (and he did have some
altitude). Had he turned tighter (about 40 degrees typically), he would have made
it further around the turn than making a wide turn. Yes, initially he would be a
bit lower, but his greater turn rate would more than compensates for that, and he
can get back some of the that altitude when he stops turning and slows down.


wrote on 8/2/2020 11:10 AM:
I must be missing something. He has no excess altitude to convert to speed.. He has no engine to add thrust. So, exactly how is he supposed to increase speed?

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 11:46:24 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
He could safely turn tighter by letting the speed increase as he banked more; put
another way, maintain his angle of attack (NOT the airspeed) as he increases the bank.

res wrote on 8/2/2020 8:34 AM:
He mentioned multiple times that he was low energy - low altitude, low airspeed. In another portion of the interview he mentioned the machine guns were whistling, which is a well known indicator that your angle of attack is critical. Turning tighter would increase wing load, which increases stall speed, which increases the chance of a low speed stall/spin. My guess is that was a top concern at the time.

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:39:36 AM UTC-5, Paul B wrote:
Great video, there are couple of questions I would ask though.

1) Why did he not turn much tighter to return to the airfield, one looses much less height in a tight turn that a shallow one? From a tight turn he might have been able to land downwind. Of course I do not know what the winds were, or how feasible is to land P-51 downwind.

2) Why did he cross the highway, surely he could have turned base halfway down the strip and have enough runway to stop.

Whilst I appreciate that he did not do it under the pressure of the situation, I was surprised however, that it did not come up in the discussion..

Cheers

Paul

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:05:48 UTC+10, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:29:13 -0700, jfitch wrote:

This is slightly off topic, as its about an engine failure in a P-51, but
is well worth watching because the majority of it is concerned with the
pilot talking us through a video shot from the aircraft followed by a
very interesting discussion as he and the interviewer unpick his thought
processes. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/BBpqvPujZgM

FWIW the URL was posted in a club heads-up about power loss in a tug or
TMG.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org



--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1




--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
 




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