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#62
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Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: (Peter Stickney) Date: 7/14/03 6:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Best range cruise speed fpr any type of Mosquito would be 'bout 170 kts/196 mph IAS. That is a very interesting number. I can't help but compare it to the B-26 which got its best range at 180 IAS loaded with steel plate armor and bristling with machine guns and carrying a crew of 6. Take off the armor, take off the guns and top turret and cut the crew to two and the B-26 may well have outperformed the Mosquito by a large margin.. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#63
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In article ,
(ArtKramr) writes: Subject: #1 Jet of World War II From: (Peter Stickney) Date: 7/14/03 6:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Best range cruise speed fpr any type of Mosquito would be 'bout 170 kts/196 mph IAS. That is a very interesting number. I can't help but compare it to the B-26 which got its best range at 180 IAS loaded with steel plate armor and bristling with machine guns and carrying a crew of 6. Take off the armor, take off the guns and top turret and cut the crew to two and the B-26 may well have outperformed the Mosquito by a large margin.. Well, not quite, perhaps. To a certain extent, best economical cruise speed was independant of the top speed. Best economical cruise is the airspeed that gives the minumum power required to maintain level flight at that altitude. Max Speed depends on the total power available. That being said, a cleaned-up B-26 would go pretty danged fast. According to the USAAF Characteristics Summary for teh B-26C, which is derived from flight test data, a combat-equipped 'C' topped out at 282 mph TAS at 15,000', or about 225 IAS. That's quite a bit over the 180 IAS cruise that you guys used. As I remember it, one pf the postwar Bendix Racers was a cleaned-up Martin B-26C (For you kids, the Bendix was an Unlimited Transcontinental Air Race. ) I don't recall how it fared. Given the way things went at that time, the winner that year would have been either Paul Mantz in his slicked-up P-51 (No pylons, no drop tanks, and the gun and ammunition bays in the wings sealed and used fro more fuel, allowing a non-stop trancontinental flight at Maximum Continuous Power). But for an old lady (A prewar design, after all, the B-26 could really move, when it needed to. I just double checked, he numbers I gave are a bit muddied-up, too. I've two Pilot's Handbooks for the Mosquito, one for the FB.6 (Fighter-Bomber) from 1950, and one for the various single-stage Merlin Night Fighters, published in 1945. The numbers I quoted were from the FB.6 handbook, and the NF.12 handbook is different. The NF.12 book lists best cruise as 220 mph IAS, which is nudging 330 TAS at 25,000'. and 360 TAS at 30,000'. It's possible that the FB.6 numbers are for an airplane carrying external bombs and rockets, but it doesn't say. Of course, these a Brit P.O.H.s, and the philosopy there is a bit different. The sum total of cruise instructions are "Try to fly at this airspeed, withoug exceeding that power setting. Yo should get thus fuel consumption." The equivalent American -1 would have an entire chapter of graphs, charts, formulae, and tables to precisely duplicate every condition. (You'd asked about differences in Aircrew Training. It could well be we've stumbled onto one). Which method is better? Who knows. The U.S.Anian one is certainly more exact, but the natural variation between aircraft, especially after they've been bashed around for a while, makes that level of precision a bit dubious. And just what is Max Speed for a bomber, anyway? 5 Minutes of War Emergency Power doesn't make too much sense, or even 15 minutes at Military Power. You can get some amazing numbers that way, that will never show up in real life. An example would be the Italian Breda 88 Attac Bomber. It was a damned serious looking twin engine light bomber that went into service with a fantastic reputation. The prototype set quite a number of speed/load/distance records, and it sure seemed fierce. When they were finally issued to the Regia Aeronautica units in North Africa, they discovered that they had an airplane that couldn't climb out of ground effect on takeoff with a full fuel load, and was in danger of colliding with the Libyan sand dunes. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#64
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Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: nt (Gordon) Date: 7/14/03 9:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Best range cruise speed fpr any type of Mosquito would be 'bout 170 kts/196 mph IAS. That is a very interesting number. I can't help but compare it to the B-26 which got its best range at 180 IAS I'd have to wornder, what was that "best range"? I was under the impression that the Mosquito could fly several times as far as the B-26 with a full 4,000 pound bombload. Take off the armor, take off the guns and top turret and cut the crew to two and the B-26 may well have outperformed the Mosquito by a large margin.. Art, the Mosquito was designed to save strategic materials, so factor that in as well. How well would the B-26 perform if it were made out of wood? I think its quite difficult to accurately compare widely dissimilar aircraft, with different design constraints and resource restrictions, unless grant some leeway in your bias toward the B-26. Its natural and I'm not saying you are wrong in being a fan of the Marauder, but there WAS a B-26 version without the turret and armor, and a crew of two or three -- its performance was such that it was determined most useful to the AAF and USN in the role of target tugs. v/r Gordon The way the USAAC operated planes that were unarmored and unarmed were of no value. We flew into flak in broad daylight and depended on armor and guns for defence, And we carried 4,000 pounds of bombs every time. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#65
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Peter Stickney wrote in message ...
I just double checked, he numbers I gave are a bit muddied-up, too. I've two Pilot's Handbooks for the Mosquito, one for the FB.6 (Fighter-Bomber) from 1950, and one for the various single-stage Merlin Night Fighters, published in 1945. The numbers I quoted were from the FB.6 handbook, and the NF.12 handbook is different. The NF.12 book lists best cruise as 220 mph IAS, which is nudging 330 TAS at 25,000'. and 360 TAS at 30,000'. It's possible that the FB.6 numbers are for an airplane carrying external bombs and rockets, but it doesn't say. Sounds like the time to add the information from the book Mosquito by Sharpe and Bowyer. The FB6 used Merlin 21/22/23/25, the NF12 merlin 21/23. Appendix 8, performance of the B35 (merlin 114) versus the FB6 (merlin 25). B35, 22,000 pounds, bomb load 1,500 pounds including 2 x 500 pounds bombs under the wings, 539 gallons of fuel, still air range 1,600 miles at 25,000 feet at 300 mph TAS, 1,250 miles at 37,000 feet at 375 mph TAS. Top speed 425 mph at 30,500 feet. FB6 21,700 pounds, bomb load 1,500 pounds including 2 x 500 pounds bombs under the wings, 453 gallons of fuel, still air range 1,120 miles at sea level at 250 mph TAS, 960 miles at sea level at 296 mph TAS. Top speed 378 mph at 13,200 feet. The Merlin 72/73 or 76/77 versions (VII, IX and XIV) outward recommended cruising speed 220 mph IAS, economic cruise in clean condition was 295 mph TAS at 20,000 feet and 350 mph at 30,000+ feet, maximum continuous cruising, clean, 349 mph TAS at 20,000 feet, 378 mph TAS at 30,000 feet. For the merlin 21/22/23/31 equipped versions maximum continuous cruise was 341 mph TAS at 20,000 feet but this fell to 329 mph at 25,000 feet, I assume in clean condition. Again outward bound recommended cruise was 220 mph IAS at around 25,000 feet. The return flight recommendation was for around a 5% reduction in cruise speed compared with outbound, 210 mph IAS. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
#66
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On 15 Jul 2003, ArtKramr wrote: The way the USAAC operated planes that were unarmored and unarmed were of no value. Well, certainly the recce, weather, and cargo aircraft were of some considerable value? I seem to dimly recall that Eisenhower proclaimed the unarmored and unarmed C-47 as one of the three most important weapons of WW2 (along with the jeep and the M-1 rifle, IIRC). And, didn't LeMay end up stripping his B-29 of all their armament save the tail guns? Cheers and all, |
#67
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On 15 Jul 2003, ArtKramr wrote: That is a very interesting number. I can't help but compare it to the B-26 which got its best range at 180 IAS loaded with steel plate armor and bristling with machine guns and carrying a crew of 6. Take off the armor, take off the guns and top turret and cut the crew to two and the B-26 may well have outperformed the Mosquito by a large margin.. But, as you say, an unarmed and unarmored B-26 would have been of "no value". OTOH, the Brits found the Mosquito of some considerable value in a variety of roles. As did the USAAF which acquired quite a number of mosquitoes. Cheers and all, |
#68
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Peter Stickney wrote:
snip I just double checked, he numbers I gave are a bit muddied-up, too. I've two Pilot's Handbooks for the Mosquito, one for the FB.6 (Fighter-Bomber) from 1950, and one for the various single-stage Merlin Night Fighters, published in 1945. The numbers I quoted were from the FB.6 handbook, and the NF.12 handbook is different. The NF.12 book lists best cruise as 220 mph IAS, which is nudging 330 TAS at 25,000'. and 360 TAS at 30,000'. It's possible that the FB.6 numbers are for an airplane carrying external bombs and rockets, but it doesn't say. This site should clear up some of the confusion (you need to scroll down quite a ways): http://www.home.gil.com.au/~bfillery/mossie02.htm "Recommended" cruise is 220 IAS outbound, 210 IAS return, for both single and two-stage a/c. The post-war limits (weight etc.) seem to have been dialed back considerably from wartime. Guy |
#69
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Thanks for the references, Geoffrey and Guy.
Gavin Bailey -- "...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance." - 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11' The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003 |
#70
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Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: Bill Shatzer Date: 7/14/03 11:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time And, didn't LeMay end up stripping his B-29 of all their armament save the tail guns? Cheers and all, But he sure didn't use them over Germany. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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