[OT] USA - TSA Obstructing Armed Pilots?

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:57:03 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!

Well, I didn't say "lots of guys with GUNS...", Juvat did. But as
someone who has carried for the past twenty years (and had a CCW for
the last nine), I'm a strong believer that we are safer with more
honest citizens armed than in those communities that have strong gun
control laws--like NY City, Washington DC, Chicago, LA, etc.

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

Ouh Rah! (sp?)

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

OK., But just who is this "Juvat" on RAM whose so obsessed with
"exhausting sessions" and "blurting out" and "Victoria's Secret?"

Nevermind Victoria's Secret (who ain't obsessed?) but you get my
drift, no?

Actually no. The creative "you wrote" version as a quote leader
doesn't degrade the message any more than a creative sig. I'm not a
Juvat, but know a lot of them. It took me less than thirty seconds to
find what "juvat" means through Google.

Juvat on RAM is a former AF fighter type now flying with the airlines.
As such I (and you as well) have seen his posts regularly and should
recognize him as one of those who makes a meaningful contribution from
a position of experience.


Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

If Juvat told your wife that she's safe flying on airliners these
days due to "LOTS OF GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AIRLINERS
RIGHT NOW" would she think through the problem?

Actually, my wife knows a lot of Juvats, a lot of airline pilots, and
a lot of gun carriers. She has thought through the problem. She
understands it quite well. Why do you think she's been able to
tolerate me for the last thirty years?



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Mike Marron wrote in
:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
Juvat ("juvat" my ass) wrote:

Sincerely relax...lots of guys with guns on US airliners right now.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!


You could tell her that bad guys seldom strike where it's known that there
are good guys with guns. They prefer unarmed victims.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Ed Rasimus wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

She doesn't even THINK like that, Ed. Help me out here. Come up
with something other than, "...lots of guys with GUNS on airliners
right now." Thanks!

Well, I didn't say "lots of guys with GUNS...", Juvat did. But as
someone who has carried for the past twenty years (and had a CCW for
the last nine), I'm a strong believer that we are safer with more
honest citizens armed than in those communities that have strong gun
control laws--like NY City, Washington DC, Chicago, LA, etc.

Point taken. Rather than get involved in a gun control debate, all I
will say is that as someone who was raised around guns (from BB
guns on up to 12-guage shotguns and big game rifes w/powerful
scopes) when the term "gun" is mentioned I think back to all the good
times *hunting.*

Now, whether we're any safer these days in the big cities due to
honest citizens like yourself packing heat is debatable. Suffice to
say that I would agree and support your position 1,000,000-percent,
but just watching nutcases like those adolescent punks in Colorado
(pre-Colombine) and also in places like Iraq, Somalia, etc. wildly
emptying their magazines into the air indicates that there is a lot to
be said for promulgating, and more importantly, ENFORCING strict
gun control laws as well.

BTW, 'juvat" means what, no balls or glory or sumpthin like that?

"Fortes fortuna juvat"---Fortune favors the brave.

Ouh Rah! (sp?)

When used in conjunction with an F-4 type (or Vipers now) it refers to
someone from Kunsan Korea. The Juvats are well known as a fighter
squadron.

OK., But just who is this "Juvat" on RAM whose so obsessed with
"exhausting sessions" and "blurting out" and "Victoria's Secret?"

Nevermind Victoria's Secret (who ain't obsessed?) but you get my
drift, no?

Actually no. The creative "you wrote" version as a quote leader
doesn't degrade the message any more than a creative sig. I'm not a
Juvat, but know a lot of them. It took me less than thirty seconds to
find what "juvat" means through Google.

Juvat on RAM is a former AF fighter type now flying with the airlines.
As such I (and you as well) have seen his posts regularly and should
recognize him as one of those who makes a meaningful contribution from
a position of experience.

Again, point taken. Don't take my admittedly playful responses to
Juvat seriously. For the most part, I figure one good turn deserves
another and was just being friendly -- yanking his chain a bit with
regards to his creative "Victoria's Secret" quote leader and his
interesting RAM "callsign."

Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Maybe your wife needs to think through the problem.

If Juvat told your wife that she's safe flying on airliners these
days due to "LOTS OF GUYS WITH GUNS ON US AIRLINERS
RIGHT NOW" would she think through the problem?

Actually, my wife knows a lot of Juvats, a lot of airline pilots, and
a lot of gun carriers. She has thought through the problem. She
understands it quite well. Why do you think she's been able to
tolerate me for the last thirty years?

Heh. Guess ya' have to know my wife. Truth be known, she's really
not acting as paranoid about air travel as I'm making her out to be
here on this happy NG assembled. As an RN, she's pretty much
seen it all and she's also a very brave and patriotic woman. In fact,
it's Christmas day and she's at work right now saving lives and
stomping out disease as we speak! If she had a handgun and knew
how to use it, I think (I hope!) she wouldn't hesitate to pull it out
of her purse and use it on some asshole terrorist (Arab or otherwise)
while flying on an airliner.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Juvat wrote:
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police,
Mike Marron blurted out:

Heh.

Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

So if you suspected that your wife would become more unsettled about
travel due to my remarks...why upset her more? [shaking head
curiously]

See my response to Ed (for the most part, I was just funnin' with ya).

Tell her, that airline crews and FAMs are at a heightened state of readiness.
We are!

And I respect and salute folks like you for safely transporting folks
like me and my loved ones around the country and across
vast continents via efficient "high-speed transportation." Thanks
again!

asked a couple flying with us on Monday, "Uhhh, it's shoot to kill
right?" They nodded.

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

Given the options presented by those islamist ****s, what is YOUR
solution?

Just don't forget to issue me one when I board, then. (I've never
fired a handgun, so I'll have a sawed-off shotgun please and thank
you!

Please understand, "lots of guys with guns on airliners right now"
sounds well and good to me, but I'm afraid you failed to reassure
my poor wife that she's any safer by your response.

Look, if your wife is offended by somebody writing ****, don't let her
read this. Filter my response for her.

Lots of folks are nervous fliers, I get it, I understand that. Lots of
folks are nervous about terrorists right now, I get that too.

Islamist ****s are out there "testing" the system, I know this
personally. You don't hear about it...but these ****s are getting
arrested when airplanes land.

Most excellent, thanks for the help, sir. Seriously.

Juvat
^^^^^^^^

Salute!

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:03:54 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:
Jeez Juvat, *that* really helped. I just had my wife read your
response but I'm afraid your "RELAX.......LOTS OF GUYS WITH
GUNS ON US AIRLINERS RIGHT NOW" failed to set her at ease,
if ya' know what I mean.

Lemme see, your wife is one of those who doesn't like good guys with
guns around her, but ignores the fact that the bad guys with guns will
be there regardless?

Having been through a few passenger screenings for transatlantic flight
recently, how are "bad guys" meant to get aboard with available
firearms? If my belt buckle sets off the alarms then a handgun will do
so. (Please no foolishness about Glocks being 'undetectable', I owned
one and the frame is barium-filled plastic with metal inserts, the slide
solid steel - superb handguns but fully compliant with security
requirement)

(Agree with Mr Rasimus defending Juvat's choice of handle, by the way)

Fun fun fun!!! Shootout at the OK corral at FL340!

Well, if the choice is giving in to an asshole with a box cutter or
having a shootout at FL 340, what do you think is the better choice.

Fine, but where do I get _my_ firearms? I'm an honest citizen with
assorted clearances, military background, trusted with all sorts of
stuff. Why can't _I_ have a weapon to reassure me on the flight?

If someone tries to take over the aircraft with a craft knife, then I'm
willing to improvise an answer with my headphone cord (makes a handy
garotte and issued by the airline for every flight... or if I can't
trust that, my MP3 player's headphones will work) and the issue blanket
(lots of loose cloth to muffle a short-blade slash) and anything else I
can find to hand. The old days of "stay put, don't be noticed, don't
resist" are _gone_ and anyone trying to hijack an airliner these days is
going to be lucky to survive.

I'm not hostile to the idea of trusting others to protect me but I want
to be confident that they'll do a better job than I could. And while I'm
not an action movie hero, I've proved I'm a half-decent shot with rifle,
pistol, SMG, LMG, GPMG, rocket launcher, guided missile and called
indirect fire; so where do I apply for some armament?

Indeed, it strikes me that a logical approach to stealing an aircraft
with homicidal intent would be to get someone planted as a sky marshall
or pilot...

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:15:58 GMT, Mike Marron
wrote:

Just don't forget to issue me one when I board, then. (I've never
fired a handgun, so I'll have a sawed-off shotgun please and thank
you!

Not on my airplane, I hope. Nice tidy little bullets are one thing,
but a handful of shot is another entirely. Pressurization systems are
good, but there is a limit.

Or were you planning on loading those little supposedly-nonlethal bean
bags? I don't think I like that any better.

How about a flammenwerfer if you don't want a handgun?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:37:40 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

It's amazing what gets down inside an airplane isn't it? In the old AT6, if
you were giving dual and either the guy in front forgot and left the canopy
cracked open, or you forgot to tell him to close it, on takeoff, every bit
of junk that had accumulated under the floor rails was sucked up and blasted
you in the face :-)

Back in the dim recesses of time when we were flying the F-8 DFBW, we
had some Navy pilots come fly it as guest pilots. They uniformly
remarked in the post-flight on how clean the airplane was; they'd
rolled inverted and nothing had fallen onto the canopy. Apparently
operational planes get a little cluttered. Or maybe a lot cluttered,
according to stories I've heard.

Our ground crews would laugh and the project test pilot would say that
the guys didn't let the pilots make a mess. The cockpits were really
clean. I remember one of the mechanics stopping by to give one of the
pilots the crystal from his watch, which he'd lost the day before.

We used to yank the inspection plates once in a while just to see what the
hell was in those dark foreboding places :-) It was sort of like when you
take the cushions off your old stuffed couch and find all sorts of goodies
buried in there.....loose change.......old stale popcorn........that blue
sock you lost five years ago.......and of course a stuffed animal or two!!!!

When I worked at McAir on the F-15, we had a snake find its way into a
cockpit and take a flight. I have always suspected that snake of
having help. (There was another snake that was flown deliberately, by
the way.) However, the kitten in the Navy trainer managed all by
itself, according to the article in last month's Approach.

Let's see if I can produce a reference:
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/feb03/feline.htm

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

In message , Jim Yanik
writes
Ed Rasimus wrote in
:
My point exactly. Security clearance and arming individuals are apples
and oranges.

A security clearance is a form of TRUST,is it not? It says something about
a person's character.

Would an untrustworthy person be able to obtain a security clearance?

A very few have, and have done a lot of damage as a result. The
clearance routine is good but not perfect.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:43:18 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:
Basically, what I'm "alluding to" is that although there's no problem at all
discussing security clearances in the generic sense as you have done here;
if you personally have a security clearance, or even HAD a security
clearance, discussing that clearance, and anything associated with it's
relationship to you personally is bad juju!

Well, although you may have good reason for what you say, in my
experience, both in the military and in industry, there was never any
problem in the statement that one possessed a security clearance. In
fact, in industry, your company ID badge displayed stars to quickly
identify the level of your clearance. Two stars = secret, three stars
= TS.

Agree almost completely, though in my experience it's a colour code
rather than a star count to define clearance levels. Still simple easy
at-a-glance option of "is that person allowed in this area? Escorted?
Unescorted?"

Seriously, there's nothing magic about security clearances. The
security issue is not who has one, but what is accessible after the
fact. There is little to be gained in status by possession of a
clearance and nothing to be added by ascribing some sort of "bad juju"
to the system.

I might be cleared to UK RESTRICTED (which isn't even recognised as
'classified' by the US, IIRC). I might be cleared to SECRET, or TOP
SECRET, or hold no clearance at all. Doesn't matter a damn - if I give
away classified information I'm eligible for a quick trip to and long
stay in jail, regardless of how cleared or not I was.

(FWIW I've got a cabinet full of SECRET stuff, but for this forum it's a
big 'so what'? I've also got good access to assorted unclassified
sources which is _much_ more useful)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Mike
Marron blurted out:

See my response to Ed (for the most part, I was just funnin' with ya).

No problem. No offense taken.

Juvat