DUAT

"KP" nospam@please wrote in message
...
Include what you *think* the weather conditions *might* allow your VFR
cruising altitude to be if you feel like it but "VFR-On-Top" alone is your
*requested/assigned* IFR altitude.

Once you report reaching VFR-On-Top and the controller reclears to to
"Maintain VFR-On-Top" he isn't responsible for separation. After that he
doesn't really care much what your actual altitude is now or might be
later (beyond verifying your Mode C for traffic or idle curiosity).


I have never received a clearance for just "VFR On Top" without further
restrictions, although I understand it is permitted. Restrictions can be
"Maintain VFR On Top at or below xxx", "....at or above xxx", or "... at or
between xxx and yyy".

I understand that the controller is not responsible for separation, so I
wonder why I always get an altitude restriction, usually "at or below".

Stan

Stan Prevost wrote:
If I put the desired altitude in the plan, then the controller knows that I
want 12500 and can tell me to "maintain VFR On Top at or below 12500". If I
don't put it in, then he has to ask me what altitude I want

No he does not.


or just
arbitrarily assigns me something

Say unable. OTP is a VFR altitude and no separation is provided. The
only time a controller should start trying to nail you down is as you
get close to your destination and you will need to be fit into an
arrival stream.

KP wrote:

Include what you *think* the weather conditions *might* allow your VFR
cruising altitude to be if you feel like it but "VFR-On-Top" alone is your
*requested/assigned* IFR altitude.

Once you report reaching VFR-On-Top and the controller reclears to to
"Maintain VFR-On-Top" he isn't responsible for separation. After that he
doesn't really care much what your actual altitude is now or might be later
(beyond verifying your Mode C for traffic or idle curiosity).

Any altitude restrictions issued *before* you reach VFR-On-Top are a
different matter.

Yep and here 99% of OTP is from the night cargo haulers in their 99's
and Airliners. Their IFR flightplan is prefiled and as they taxi they
request OTP and say "I am OTP at this time." So we don't give them an
altitude, just "maintain VFR on Top."

Stan Prevost wrote:



I have never received a clearance for just "VFR On Top" without further
restrictions, although I understand it is permitted.

I can't understand why you'd restrict an aircraft, outside of a class B.

Restrictions can be
"Maintain VFR On Top at or below xxx", "....at or above xxx", or "... at or
between xxx and yyy".

Yes, but what's the point? I don't have to separate you so why restrict
you?



I understand that the controller is not responsible for separation, so I
wonder why I always get an altitude restriction, usually "at or below".

Ask next time.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

If I put the desired altitude in the plan, then the controller knows that
I want 12500 and can tell me to "maintain VFR On Top at or below 12500".
If I don't put it in, then he has to ask me what altitude I want or just
arbitrarily assigns me something and then if it's not what I want we have
to go through more radio exchange.

How is it better to not include the altitude?


An alternative clearance is issued when necessary to ensure separation from
other traffic or airspace. For example, if the controller had traffic at
nine thousand a proper clearance would be; "Climb to and report reaching
VFR-on-top, no tops reports. If not on top at eight thousand maintain
eight thousand and advise." Remember, you're just another IFR aircraft
until you report reaching and are cleared to maintain VFR-on-top.

To issue "maintain VFR On Top at or below 12500" the controller would have
to know the tops were 11,500 or lower. Why use a restriction of 12,500? To
separate from IFR traffic at 13,500 or VFR traffic at 13,000?

"John Clonts" wrote in message
oups.com...

Maybe so, but you're required to report changing altitudes when flying
VFR-On-Top (at least, per the AIM)...


The AIM says pilots SHOULD advise ATC prior to any altitude change when
operating OTP.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

I have never received a clearance for just "VFR On Top" without further
restrictions, although I understand it is permitted. Restrictions can be
"Maintain VFR On Top at or below xxx", "....at or above xxx", or "... at
or between xxx and yyy".

I understand that the controller is not responsible for separation, so I
wonder why I always get an altitude restriction, usually "at or below".


Do you receive these restrictions after reporting VFR-on-top? Are you
operating in airspace where ATC provides separation to VFR aircraft? Is
Special Use Airspace a factor?

On 7/12/2005 07:47, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"John Clonts" wrote in message
oups.com...

Maybe so, but you're required to report changing altitudes when flying
VFR-On-Top (at least, per the AIM)...


The AIM says pilots SHOULD advise ATC prior to any altitude change when
operating OTP.



Sorry if I'm missing something, but aren't we talking about two different
flight modes here?

Over the Top is a VFR flight mode. You are not under IFR restrictions.

VFR On Top is an IFR clearance. You are under IFR restrictions and must
report changes in altitude (among other IFRs).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

The AIM says pilots SHOULD advise ATC prior to any altitude change when
operating OTP.

Sorry if I'm missing something, but aren't we talking about two different
flight modes here?

No, just one.

Over the Top is a VFR flight mode. You are not under IFR restrictions.

Not this one.

VFR On Top is an IFR clearance. You are under IFR restrictions and must
report changes in altitude (among other IFRs).

This is the one we're talking about. I think Steve is pointing out the
distinction
between my use of the words "required to", your use of the word "must",
and the AIM's use of the word "should" (AIM 5-3-3).

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"Newps" wrote in message
...


KP wrote:

Include what you *think* the weather conditions *might* allow your VFR
cruising altitude to be if you feel like it but "VFR-On-Top" alone is
your *requested/assigned* IFR altitude.

Once you report reaching VFR-On-Top and the controller reclears to to
"Maintain VFR-On-Top" he isn't responsible for separation. After that he
doesn't really care much what your actual altitude is now or might be
later (beyond verifying your Mode C for traffic or idle curiosity).

Any altitude restrictions issued *before* you reach VFR-On-Top are a
different matter.

Yep and here 99% of OTP is from the night cargo haulers in their 99's and
Airliners. Their IFR flightplan is prefiled and as they taxi they request
OTP and say "I am OTP at this time." So we don't give them an altitude,
just "maintain VFR on Top."

OK, seems like reporting that I am OTP is part of the puzzle. A few days
ago, I had requested 125/OTP. I intended to fly at 12500 while VFR On Top,
so I requested that. The controller seemed a little uncertain, said he
didn't have any tops reports. Finally he cleared me to "Climb to and report
reaching 12000, maintain VFR-on-top at 12000. If not on top at 12000
maintain 12 thousand and advise." It seemed wierd, but I decided to climb
on up and clear it up at altitude. So I climbed to 12000 and reported "VFR
On Top at 12000". Then he told me to "Maintain VFR On Top at 12000", as I
recall, it might have been "at or below 12000". So I asked him if I
shouldn't be up at 12500, he stammered a bit, said stand by, then came back
and said to "Maintain VFR On Top at 12500 (might have been 12500 or below,
it has gotten fuzzy now)". It was a bit of a circus the rest of the way on
handoffs. One controller told me "For further advisories contact XXX Center
on YYY.ZZ", which I had not heard before while on an IFR flight plan. Then
another controller wouldn't let me descend in time (while I was still VFR On
Top), I wound up cancelling IFR and circling down to the airport.

From your post, I learn that I should report OTP as soon as I am OTP and can
remain so, even if I have not reached the "report reaching" altitude. Then
I should be cleared to just Maintain VFR On Top, and I can continue to climb
to my desired altitude. Is that right?

It's been too long to remember the details, but once I left our local
airport in Class C and the controller would not clear me for OTP, or gave me
OTP below 10000, can't remember now. His reason had something to do with
he didn't own the airspace above 10000. Does that mean the controller must
restrict my clearance to something that will cause me to be contained within
his airspace?\

Stan