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#61
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it (because they won't know) and neither will the approach control That's where the period goes. Approach may know, but may not be able to do anything about it. until they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes, depending on where you're departing from. Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then there can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative to terrain. I believe that there is a HUGE pilot misconception about the level of assistance for terrain avoidance when departing a towered field. I have learned to always request and fly ODPs when they exist, no matter what kind of airport, or weather. It's good practice. I believe that the same applies for SIDs as a way to reduce the risk of metal to metal contact. |
#62
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Greg Esres wrote: Heading and vector are synonomous. There are no nonradar headings. A nonradar tower or approach control can not, by definition, vector. You're contradicting yourself, dude. Non-radar facilities can, and, do, issue headings, but as you say, they cannot vector, because they do not have radar. Any heading issued by a tower controller is a vector. As you stated above, a non-radar tower cannot vector, but they can issue headings. A nonradar facility cannot vector. There aren't very many of them around anymore. Helena, MT is one of the few left. They are a nonradar approach control and tower. You will fly the DP and it is a one in and one out facility. You will never get a vector or a heading from them. Now if they are a VFR tower, with or without a DBRITE scope, they may give a vector if the approach control gives the tower the vector with the IFR release. And of course a tower with radar gives vectors all the time. As a matter of fact at my facility we have made the tower controller a radar controller, it let's us use the airspace more efficiently since we do a lot of opposite direction stuff. You're vastly outvoted by other experts in the subject, so I think you are in error and are dangerously misleading readers, because the heading assignment by tower is not capable of providing what a vector provides, which is terrain clearance. If terrain is a factor there will be a DP. Any vector will meet that. None of this changes the fact that there is no difference between a vector and a heading, they are synonomous. |
#63
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Greg Esres wrote: They are either canned from the LOA with the IFR facility, relayed verbatim from the IFR facility (4-2-4), or the tower controller is trained, certified, and delegated the authority by the appropriate level of management to use the tower radar display to issue them (3-1-9c). Exactly. In the first case, the tower is not capable of tracking the aircraft with respect to obstacles, and therefore cannot provide any terrain clearance, which is why they can't vector. No, many approach control facilities will have an LOA with a tower to send the departures out on canned headings not for terrain but for operational needs. Take a busy airspace like Minneapolis. MSP TRACON will have an LOA with the four towers in their airspace. What they can do is tell each tower that you can automatically release IFR departures but they have to be on certain headings, these headings will guarantee separation from all other IFR traffic in the area. Each faciltiy wins in this deal. TRACON doesn't have to constantly answer the landline to issue releases and tower doesn't have to call all the time. |
#64
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KP wrote: In the first two instances the departing aircraft is still being vectored. The vector (a heading issued to provide radar navigational guidance) is being issued (originates in) the IFR facility (radar approach control or center) and is *relayed* to the aircraft by the tower. The aircraft may be talking to the tower but the initial *vector* is (technically) coming from the approach control or center. Or the tower if the tower is a radar facility. All class B and C towers are radar facilities. All have automatic release agreements with their respective approach controls. In the third instance the tower issues (originates) the vector. Normally the tower is delegated a "fan" of headings to use in the LOA. This allows them to take advantage of the 15deg divergence rule for succesive or simultaneous departures contained in 5-8-3. Yes. Whether a tower does or does not have a radar display has no effect on whether tower controllers can or cannot *relay* vectors. ANY facility can relay IFR clearances/instructions. Yes. Just because a tower has a radar display does not mean it can *issue* vectors either. That authority is delegated by the IFR facility through management channels, is location specific, and operationally unique. Some VFR towers have a DBRITE scope but are not allowed to vector. It is the controller equivalent of a VFR GPS. It is for situational awareness only. |
#65
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Snowbird wrote: Newps wrote in message news:mI_ob.83301$e01.270611@attbi_s02... Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors Um...VFR tower guys (the subject of this subthread is non-radar towers) don't give vectors. Sure they can. |
#66
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Snowbird wrote: Now that I think about it some more, I think the issue is that some VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact") can relay radar vectors from the radar approach control which serves them. But sitting on the ground, I have no way of knowing whether Whatzits Approach meets the criteria (whatever they are) to provide radar vectors to Podunk Tower. If I hear "fly heading XXX, intercept the ABC 188 degree radial" is that a vector or a heading? Vectors and headings are the same. I think the rule has to be, if there's something to hit and departure instructions don't include the obstacle DP, Ask. Can't ever go wrong by asking. |
#67
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#68
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#69
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Roy Smith wrote: In article , (Snowbird) wrote: Um...VFR tower guys (the subject of this subthread is non-radar towers) don't give vectors. Is there an official definition of a "VFR tower" or a "non-radar tower"? A VFR tower is a tower with no radar at all in the cab or a DBRITE that has not been certified for separation services. An example of a VFR tower are all contract and non federal towers. Grand Forks, ND is VFR, Van Nuys is VFR, etc. Almost all class D towers are VFR. |
#70
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Greg Esres wrote: I can buy the idea of a relayed vector, but the person who provided the vector still must see you on radar. Yes, they have to be able to see you by a certain point after departure to be allowed to issue vectors in the takeoff clearance. When the aircraft is sitting on the ground, approach control can't see it and therefore can't vector it. Well we can see aircraft on the ground, though that has nothing to do with anything. Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it (because they won't know) and neither will the approach control until they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes, depending on where you're departing from. In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into anything. |
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