Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard

Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 3/4/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time

Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John


Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries
of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard"
and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

Art, the National Guard as we know it today was pretty much
established under the Militia Act of 1903, which required that the
various units of teh Organized Militia of the various States had to
conform to U.S. Army standards of equipment, organization, and
training, Federal control was tightened throughout the decade
following, and the National Guard was made part of the United States
Army via the National Defence Act of 1914. This recognized 4 elements
of the land forces of the U.S,: The Regular Army, the National Guard,
the Reserve Corps, and the wartime Volunteer Army. (The regular Army
was made up of Career Soldiers. The National Guard was the part-time
reserve, organized into units housed by the States and available to
the Governors of those States. The Reserve Corps was part-time
soldiers not formed into units, The Volunteer Army was to have been
the units formed during wartime expansion of the Army. By the time of
the U.S. ENtry into the FIrst World War, the Volunteer Army was
replaced by the National Army, which was made up of people inducted
via the Draft. The Federal GOvernment gained the power to appoint all
Officers in 1914.

(As an aside, Regular Army units are distinguished by Division numbers
running from 1 through 25, and Regimental designations running from
1-100. National Guard Division numerical designations run from 26-62,
and Regiments from 100-168. National Army units had Division and
Regemntal numbers higher than these. So any Division between 26 adn
62 (That actual Highest number activated was 45) was a National Guard
Division.)

In August 1918, all Active Units (Regulars, Activated Guard Units, and
National Army) were fused inot the same organization. One they're
called up or activated, they're considered completely intergangable
with the Regular Army.

The National Guard was called up beginning in February 1940, and was
not released until Nov/Dec. 1945.

Most of this is from the "Infantry" volume of the Army Lineage Series,
Mahon and Danysh, Office of teh Chief of Military History, Washington
D.C., 1972, and "World War II Order of Battle", Stanton, Galahad, NY,
NY, 1991.

--
Pete Stickney


I donlt know Peter. Remember we were kids at the time waiting to be 18 and go
to war. Almost all of us in high school volunteered for either the Army Air
Corps ro the Navy V12 program waiting for our 18th birthday so we could be
called up and start training at flying school. Those very few who went into
the "Guard" were considered cowards and held in contempt and none of them ever
went to war. The stuff you are telling me is quite interesting, but we knew
nothing about that at the time. But thanks for the info.Appreciate it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
when it was--well, nationalized.

Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.

Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: Cub Driver
Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
"Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
when it was--well, nationalized.

Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.

Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when we
violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary
entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be called
to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something, so we
had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every day
and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids among us
who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One was
to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and Fairchild
were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that a
kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the Army
AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the world.
We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs come
out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out in
full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for our
country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all to
glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to go.
Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went in to
the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war would
end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or those
who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And never
would be.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: Cub Driver
Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
"Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain
further.

He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
when it was--well, nationalized.

Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.

Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when
we
violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary
entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be
called
to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something,
so we
had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every
day
and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids
among us
who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One
was
to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and
Fairchild
were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that
a
kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the
Army
AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the
world.
We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs
come
out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out
in
full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for
our
country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all
to
glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to
go.
Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went
in to
the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war
would
end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or
those
who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And
never
would be.

Geeze, you just don't GET it, do you? As Cub Driver has politley informed
you, going into the State Guard did NOT get your buddy a deferment. Where
you got that idea I have no idea; for that matter, how you grew up and lived
through that period without realizing that your local National Guard unit,
like every other one from across the country, had been inducted into federal
service when you were, oh...fifteen or sixteen years old says something
about your qulaifications to make (baseless) pronouncements about the Guard,
be it the National variety or your state militia force.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

From: Cub Driver



snip

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)


The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In article ,
(B2431) writes:
From: Cub Driver



snip

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)


The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Dan, or is it Dan?
Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.

(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
Overture, played at half speed.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Unfortunately, I sporterized the 45/70, so it lost a lot of its value
right there (if it had any). And when I was in the army, my brother
sold it.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(B2431) writes:
From: Cub Driver



snip

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)


The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Dan, or is it Dan?
Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.

(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
Overture, played at half speed.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I
truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun
collection.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In article ,
(B2431) writes:
Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(B2431) writes:
From: Cub Driver



snip

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)


The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Dan, or is it Dan?
Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.

(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
Overture, played at half speed.)

I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I
truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun
collection.

Well, teh problem wasn't so much Rate of Fire, y'see, but Time of
Flight. At 200 Yds, it was taking the bullet the better part of a
second to get down there, So, it was "Boom!,......Bong!",
"Boom!.........Bong!" I suppose that wo could have worked up some
interesting counterpoint, if I'd brought the Garand along. AS it was,
the Abutters thought it was Some Strange Ritual in Progress, and
called the Police. No big deal though, we let them shoot a few rounds
and all was O.K.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...

snip

Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school
when we
violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the
primary
entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't
be called
to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or
something, so we
had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news
every day
and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids
among us
who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called.
One was
to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and
Fairchild
were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out
that a
kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either
the Army
AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in
the world.

Wow, what an ignorant bunch of kids you were. You weren't even sure
what the hell the kid's plans were (other than he was going into this
"guard" you've dreamed up), and you alienated him.

We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12
programs come
out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came
out in
full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could
for our
country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was
all to
glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't
wait to go.
Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time
went in to
the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the
war would
end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the
"guard" or those who got defferments doing war work. But they were
never one of us. And never would be.

Yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Jeez, we've heard it from you a hundred
times. You're something special and anyone who didn't join the
service the second they could and get into action ain't ****. Christ,
anytime I run into a vet as arrogant and boastful as you I have to
wonder what they were really like back then.

Michael