Looking for starter plane

Thanks for the replies!

An update:

It turns out that I can actually scrounge up about 30-35K. Before this
conversation, I might have automatically upgraded my sights to a
Cherokee, but the decision bears some thought.

Having extra cash in hand to cover unanticipated costs in the
beginning/whenever sounds like a good idea.

I understand the financing logic, and I use the same advice on the
properties I own (if I saved up until I could buy them outright, I'd
never buy them, and it'd be a bad investment of capital that could be
doing other things, etc), but I still have a hard time applying the
same model to airplanes. Sure, I'd love to have a Piper Cherokee four
seater with an IFR stack, in panel GPS, seat warmers, etc.... but I
_really_ hate debt load for 'doodads' (I'm sure some people in the
group will pick up on where I'm coming from based on that).

I've spent the last few years getting rid of soft debt (credit cards,
car payments, etc) and replacing them with capital debt (like my house,
investment properties, etc) and the number of actual payments I make
per month is down to the basics. It's not just the interest that gets
me, it's also the safety factor. I've been folding everything around
the concept of being self-sustaining in case I lose my job/medical
problems/economic downturn etc. Right now, if I stopped working for
the company I work for, I could still cover my bills and downshift to
an economy mode using my passive income. It wouldn't be great, but I'd
survive. I don't necessarilly think that WILL happen, but I'm working
real hard to avoid having monthly expenses that would push me into the
red in that contingency, and the payments on a nice plane fall into
that category. If I can buy a plane outright, I don't leave my little
financial safety zone.

I know, it sounds crazy. In another time, I might be the guy who
builds a big bomb shelter in the back yard, but for now.... I wanna
fly without having a 'car payment'.

I'm going to go pick up a copy of 'Buying and owning your own airplane'
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846)
and do some worksheets.

Sounds like you have it all well though out. Hope your deal works out
great, and you have a lot of safe flying fun!





"Ben Hallert" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the replies!

An update:

It turns out that I can actually scrounge up about 30-35K. Before this
conversation, I might have automatically upgraded my sights to a
Cherokee, but the decision bears some thought.

Having extra cash in hand to cover unanticipated costs in the
beginning/whenever sounds like a good idea.

I understand the financing logic, and I use the same advice on the
properties I own (if I saved up until I could buy them outright, I'd
never buy them, and it'd be a bad investment of capital that could be
doing other things, etc), but I still have a hard time applying the
same model to airplanes. Sure, I'd love to have a Piper Cherokee four
seater with an IFR stack, in panel GPS, seat warmers, etc.... but I
_really_ hate debt load for 'doodads' (I'm sure some people in the
group will pick up on where I'm coming from based on that).

I've spent the last few years getting rid of soft debt (credit cards,
car payments, etc) and replacing them with capital debt (like my house,
investment properties, etc) and the number of actual payments I make
per month is down to the basics. It's not just the interest that gets
me, it's also the safety factor. I've been folding everything around
the concept of being self-sustaining in case I lose my job/medical
problems/economic downturn etc. Right now, if I stopped working for
the company I work for, I could still cover my bills and downshift to
an economy mode using my passive income. It wouldn't be great, but I'd
survive. I don't necessarilly think that WILL happen, but I'm working
real hard to avoid having monthly expenses that would push me into the
red in that contingency, and the payments on a nice plane fall into
that category. If I can buy a plane outright, I don't leave my little
financial safety zone.

I know, it sounds crazy. In another time, I might be the guy who
builds a big bomb shelter in the back yard, but for now.... I wanna
fly without having a 'car payment'.

I'm going to go pick up a copy of 'Buying and owning your own airplane'
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846)
and do some worksheets.

Brian Sponcil wrote:
: them, yada yada yada) can also be said for the skyhawk. Performance is
: roughly the same and you get a 2nd door, albeit likely for a higher cost.

True... at the time I was looking (about 3 years ago), it was an $8-10K
premium for a comparable 172 vs. -140's.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Get in a partnership.


In article 1111699141.693875@sj-nntpcache-3, says...

Ben Hallert wrote:

I can scrounge together around $20-25K out of pocket and I hate to
finance things. Since I'm an extremely low-time pilot, I don't want to
go flying with my family until I've got more practice. I've put this
together, made some cost of ownership calculations, and here's what I'm
thinking of:

Piper Tomahawk w/ IFR stack. I've seen nice looking, low time aircraft
listed in places for the 20-25 range. Here's what I get:

1. Full ownership, no financing.
2. IFR capable in the indicated pricerange.
3. Enough usable space to carry me and an instructor (I'm 250, leaving
about 160 to for a fully fueled plane).
4. Low wing
5. Low cost of ownership.

If $20-25K is what you have available, that's not enough to buy a plane with a
$20-25K purchase price. Take a look through the various threads here about
buying a first plane. There's one thing everyone here agrees on, and that is
that you don't want to blow your whole wad on the purchase. The cost of
operating and maintaining an airplane is widely variable and unpredictable. You
need to be ready for a multi-thousand dollar surpsise at any time. Doesn't
matter how good your pre-buy inspection was.

Nevertheless, I hope you go ahead and do it, join the rest of us in self-induced

poverty. :-)

Dave

I would love to get into a partnership, in fact, thanks for the
reminder! I'm moving to Eugene/Springfield, OR, and while there aren't
that many flyers here, I've read that I might luck out if I post some
notes down at the local fields.

Heck, I just want my own plane, but I'd be dumb to forget about
partnerships.

Thanks!

Ben Hallert wrote:
: rent (Cessna only). I like the low wing planes, and I really want to
: buy my own for my upcoming IFR training.

: Piper Tomahawk w/ IFR stack. I've seen nice looking, low time aircraft
: listed in places for the 20-25 range. Here's what I get:

: 1. Full ownership, no financing.
: 2. IFR capable in the indicated pricerange.
: 3. Enough usable space to carry me and an instructor (I'm 250, leaving
: about 160 to for a fully fueled plane).
: 4. Low wing
: 5. Low cost of ownership.

I would just like to add that this sounds like a fairly reasonable plan,
especially since you've got a little more to burn than the 20-25 you initially stated.
I think it's worth saying that there's a completely different set of rules that apply
to a plane purchased for obtaining and IFR rating, vs. one that's used for IFR travel.
The former can be effectively done with a ratted out Cessna 150 or a PA-38 with an
AI/DG and one VOR/ILS. In many ways it's better to train it something like that
because it's slower so you can learn easier, and minimal equipment really makes you
work hard and become proficient on minimal equipment. About 80% of the airwork of the
rating is minimizing brainpower keeping the shiny side up while you juggle and add
other tasks.... all perfectly doable in a minimally-equipped trainer. If you're just
finishing your PPSEL, you'll want to do lots of VFR flying as well, so it'll get lots
of use just learning the ropes there.

The latter probably shouldn't be comfortably done without a little more
equipment redundancy, high-level of maintainance, and a bigger engine up front.
You're most likely talking a few hundred hours before you'll be ready for that,
anyway. By that time, a Cherokee is a minimal "step-up," and you may be looking more
for an Arrow-class plane to go places.

Anyway, I wouldn't get too involved in getting a cherry IFR Traumahawk for
training. You don't need that much until you really want to *use* it... then you'll
want to have some more options if things go down the crapper. My opinion, of
course... but consider that just the database updates for an IFR-certified GPS are
nominally $600-$1200/year (depending on the model). That's about as much as the
*insurance* on my bird.... for training you don't *need* that.

-Cory
--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Picking a nit here... but a "C-140" is common vernacular for a Cessna
140. A high-wing, two-seater taildragger from days of yore when
aviation was still magical and electric starters were just barely
beginning to be viewed as not for sissies anymore. Referring to a
Cherokee 140 as a C-140 is horribly incorrect.

Having said that, a Cherokee 140 is indeed a fine first airplane for a
new pilot. They do tend to be more affordable to purchase and maintain
than a C-172, and if you only consider the two front seats, a Cherokee
140 actually has more room than the Cessna 172. Its front seat area is
wider and you have noticeably better shoulder room between the pilot
and co-pilot seats. The back seats are a different story. A C-172 back
seat is rather uncomfortably cramped and can hold an adult but a
Cherokee 140's back seat just simply sucks, usually an adult has to sit
sideways to keep his knees out of his chest. I've flown hundreds of
hours in both, but if I'm solo or only have one pax, then I'd rather
fly the Cherokee any day. The single door of a Cherokee has never been
a "turn-off" for any of my passengers yet. The Cherokee usually is a
tiny bit faster than a C-172 of same horsepower, and when solo and full
of fuel, the Cherokee has much greater range. The only time I'd rather
be in the C-172 would be if I have a real engine-out and am forced to
land in a tight space. The Skyhawk can land much slower and shorter
than a Cherokee can.

wrote:
: Picking a nit here... but a "C-140" is common vernacular for a Cessna
: 140. A high-wing, two-seater taildragger from days of yore when
: aviation was still magical and electric starters were just barely
: beginning to be viewed as not for sissies anymore. Referring to a
: Cherokee 140 as a C-140 is horribly incorrect.

I agree... I had to reread a number of posts to figure out what they were
saying. A C-140 is a 2-place, tailwheel Cessna. A -140 when one's already talking
about Cherokees might be OK, otherwise, it's a PA28-140.

: be in the C-172 would be if I have a real engine-out and am forced to
: land in a tight space. The Skyhawk can land much slower and shorter
: than a Cherokee can.

Legendary Hershey-bar, "brick" glide ratio. It sure does stall nicely,
though... It also seems to load very nonlinearly. Basically, it seems to fly the
same as you load it up until a point, and then won't climb anymore.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I don't know what GPS you're talking about but the database updates for
our Garmin 430 are only around 300 bucks per year..

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

snip
course... but consider that just the database updates for an IFR-certified GPS are
nominally $600-$1200/year (depending on the model). That's about as much as the
*insurance* on my bird.... for training you don't *need* that.