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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 2nd 07, 01:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Eunometic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.

A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.

United Kingdom

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.

Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.
Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail
By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.

Germany:

Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'

Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.

Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.

ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.

Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.

He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.

Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.


Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.
Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks.
He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.
He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.



USA:

Essential:

P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.
P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.
B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.
B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible
B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger
P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.

Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.
Helldiver: too many handling problems.
P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.

Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;
Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential


Japan:

Essential:

Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84

Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84


Soviet Union

Essential

Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16

Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in
function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its
engine was needed.

  #2  
Old October 2nd 07, 05:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Rob Arndt[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

On Oct 2, 5:06?am, Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.

A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.

United Kingdom

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.

Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.
Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail
By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.

Germany:

Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'

Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.

Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.

ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.

Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.

He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.

Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.

Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.
Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks.
He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.
He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.

USA:

Essential:

P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.
P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.
B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.
B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible
B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger
P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.

Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.
Helldiver: too many handling problems.
P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.

Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;
Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential

Japan:

Essential:

Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84

Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84

Soviet Union

Essential

Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16

Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in
function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its
engine was needed.


Euno,

Very nice list, but I am surprised that the German section alone is
missing so many a/c:

Ar-196
Ar-240/440
Ba-349
Bv-138
Bv-222/238
DFS 230
Do-335
Fi-156
Fw-187
Fw-189
Fw Ta 152
Fw Ta 154
Fw-200
Go-229
He-100/112
He-162
Hs-123
Hs-129
Ju-52
Ju-86/89
Ju-188
Ju-290/390
Me-163
Me-261
Me-264
Me-321/323
Me P.1101

*plus all German rotorcraft

Some of these never became operational and yet could fill in the Might
Have Beens while others from my list were either Essential or Non-
Essential.

I will leave it up to you to complete this list by telling us how you
would rate each one.

Rob


  #3  
Old October 2nd 07, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

On Oct 2, 5:06 am, Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.

A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.

United Kingdom

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.

Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.
Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail
By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.

Germany:

Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'

Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.

Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.

ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.

Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.

He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.

Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.

Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.
Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks.
He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.
He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.

USA:

Essential:

P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.
P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.
B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.
B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible
B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger
P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.

Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.
Helldiver: too many handling problems.
P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.

Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;
Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential

Japan:

Essential:

Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84

Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84

Soviet Union

Essential

Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16

Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in
function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its
engine was needed.




You are clearly unstable.



  #4  
Old October 2nd 07, 09:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.


"Eunometic" wrote in message
ps.com...
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.

A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.

United Kingdom

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.

Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.


I strongly disagree. It played an essential role both as a nightfighter and
in the shipping strike role in the ETO and their long range made
them extremely valuable ground attack aircraft in the far east


Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail


It could and did however make an excellent ground attack aircraft
and played a vital role in the western campaign attacking the
Wehrmacht

By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.

Germany:

Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'

Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.

Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.

ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.

Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.

He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.

Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.


Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and


The Me-210 suffered from oscillation making it a poor gun platform and had
nasty stall
characteristics. The pilots HATED them and only a month after entering
service production was halted

Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.


Say What !

The Me-110 entered service before the war started in 1939. While inadequate
against first line fighters in the West it played a valuable role as a NF
and
ground attack craft. It survived in service long after the Me-210's were
withdrawn.


Keith








  #5  
Old October 2nd 07, 10:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.


"Eunometic" wrote
Essential
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.


For a short while, they probably wouldn't have missed it had it not been
designed.


Non Essential:
Beaufighter;


Invaluable in the anti-shipping role. Made a large if not desicive
contribution to the campaign in N Africa by interdicting Rommels supplies.

Tempest and Typhoon
Wasn't the Tempest the quickest thing the RAF had for a while? Not inc
Meteor
These two types were very fine aircraft in the CAS and strike roles not to
mention all the V-1s the Tempest claimed. They probably wouldn't have been
missed much in the Air to Air role but unless you're putting iron on the
ground Air superiority is just for show thus I would say they were essential



  #6  
Old October 2nd 07, 11:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Gordon[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

On Oct 2, 7:06 am, Eunometic wrote:

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.


Series numbers need to be included in your listing, as some marks of
each of these aircraft made far more of an impact than others. Eric
Brown told us that "by FAR [his emphasis], the Spitfire XIV was the
most outstanding British fighter of the war." For "best fighter of
the war", he left absolutely no doubt, stating that "...with the Me
262, it was apparent after a few flights that we were... years behind
in fighter development." He felt it was a superb fighter with good
range for the day, a remarkably heavy armament, and few vices.

Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.


I think the amount of damage it did as an Intruder and marking targets
for Main Force heavies cannot be underestimated either.

Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.


Strange to see the Wimpy in here but we simply must include something
from Mr. Wallis.


He 111: early bombing workhorse


Redundant, I think, if you are including the Ju on your list, as it
was clearly superior in all regards.

Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.


very few successes in this role. As a night bomber, it was
inefficient and could not survive most attacks. I think the Ju 88 was
"Essential", and the Do was not.


Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.


Strongly disagree. I have known Me 210 / 410 pilots and they thought
the 210 was "ghastly" "horrible to fly", and the 410 was "too complex;
filled with gadgets" although the Gruppe commander of the
Schnellbombers said he really thought the glass panel between the feet
was an excellent idea. I don't know what role the 210/410s filled
that other aircraft could not have done better.

He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.


I think it was essential, just stupidly ignored.

He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.


By the time it matured into an effective bomber, its bases were under
Allied-controlled skies, making good use impossible. Germany needed a
heavy bomber in 1940-41; by 1944, they were just targets for roving
Allied fighters.


USA:

Essential:

P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.


What a lot of people don't fully realize is that this aircraft was
just about all we had for the first two years of the war, and it
remained in service long after it was made obsolete by others. Until
the unready P-38s and the thirsty P-47Cs came along, P-40s were just
about it!

P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.


Hmmmmm... It seems in my memory that the rocket-firing German
fighters were mostly treated roughly by P-47s and the gunners aboard
the heavy bombers.

B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.


Greater warload as well. I think these were both essential.

B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger


Not sure if we actually "needed" the Avenger. The IJN was primarily
bombed out of existance, not torpedoed out of existance (not counting
the tremendous job done by the Silent Service, of course).

P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.

Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.


But faster, which is important if you are in amongst enemy fighters.

Helldiver: too many handling problems.


Blew. Only "replacement aircraft" that I know of that was taken out
of service and "replaced" by the aircraft it was supposed to replace.
Crews called it "the Beast", and I have to date never met anyone that
liked it in any way.

P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.


Cost and battlefield effectiveness - P-38s would have had a very
difficult time against airfield defenses and in other roles where the
51 excelled. Primarily, the P-51 beat everyone else in its fielded
numbers; what is better, five squadrons of P-38s or 25 squadrons of
Mustangs, with a much higher sortie rate and far lower price tag?

Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;


A Navy Captain told me, "That _____-___ ____ of ____ wasn't worth the
trouble - we were forced to take it by politicians." He was a loyal
Grumman customer and saw no need whatever for the F4U.

Hellcat did a good enough job.


You have a talent for understatement.

Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential


naaaaa.

Japan:

Essential:

Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84

Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84

Soviet Union

Essential

Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16


The last LaGG and the Yak 9 absolutely should be on your list.

v/r
Gordon

  #7  
Old October 2nd 07, 11:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Dean A. Markley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.

A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.

United Kingdom

Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.

Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.
Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail
By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.

Germany:

Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'

Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.

Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.

ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.

Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.

He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.

Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.


Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.
Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks.
He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.
He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.



USA:

Essential:

P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.
P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.
B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.
B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible
B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger
P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.

Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.
Helldiver: too many handling problems.
P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.

Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;
Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential


Japan:

Essential:

Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84

Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84


Soviet Union

Essential

Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16

Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in
function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its
engine was needed.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing to possess!
  #8  
Old October 3rd 07, 01:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Rob Arndt[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

On Oct 2, 3:49?pm, "Dean A. Markley" wrote:
Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
***********************************************
I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that
side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their
place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so
ineffective that they were not needed at all.


A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and
were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of
effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains
in production.


United Kingdom


Essential:
Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain
Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an
amenable to all rolls.
Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most
importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance.
Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load.
Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command
aircraft.


Non Essential:
Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its
roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy.
Hampden;
Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better.
Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson.
Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude
performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not
particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to
snap of at the tail
By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a
single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although
the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better.
It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a
two stage Griffon.


Germany:


Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in
non essential so I've added the column 'might have'


Essential:
Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill
1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service
ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with
a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not
delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98
atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which
suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph.
The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that
had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed
better with superior fuel.


Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses.


ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber,
maritime patrol etc.


Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly
accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and
ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates
of any Luftwaffe aircraft.


He 111: early bombing workhorse
Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and
guided missile carrier.
Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was
the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two
prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable
during this process. They were both shot down by their own German
FLAK.
Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied
resources.


Non essential:
Do 17
Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju
88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns
but I don't think these were decisive.


Might Have
Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and
Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply
too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies.
Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks.
He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter
and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down
British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been
ascertained.
He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series
with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and
provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of
exceptional performance
had courage preceded arse covering.


USA:


Essential:


P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite
effective with appropriate tactics.
P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.
B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber.
B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue.
B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible
B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger
P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51.


Non Essential
B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too
demanding of runway conditions.
Helldiver: too many handling problems.
P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a
wett wing which actually
could excede the range of the P-51.


Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;
Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in
numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have
been essential


Japan:


Essential:


Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty.
Dinah, Ki 84


Non essential
All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84


Soviet Union


Essential


Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16


Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in
function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its
engine was needed.


20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing to possess!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


OK, how about foresight, then?

21st century US Non-Essentials:

F-22 Raptor
V-22 Osprey

Rob

  #9  
Old October 3rd 07, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 183
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

There are some real whoppers in your list, and critical omissions too. I'll
concentrate on the USA, which I know best:

USA

On 2-Oct-2007, Eunometic wrote:

P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.


TOTALLY WRONG. The P-38 was a FAILURE in the ETO, due to poor high altitude
performance from defective engines and unreliable turbosuperchargers. Its
unheated cockpits were another significant liability because of their effect
on pilot performance. It was a long-range wonder in the Pacific, where it
fought at lower altitudes, but was a failure in the ETO.

In parallel with this is your assertion that the P-51 was "not essential."
Only the P-51 had the necessary escort range. Without it the daylight
bombing campaign would have failed in late 1943. Moreover, the 51
outperformed virtually all-prop driven Axis fighters. This aircraft won the
air war for the Allies in the ETO.

One statistic says it all. In 1945 the only 8th AF fighter group still
flying the P-47 was the 56th FG. All others flew the 51. This wasn't an
accident. BTW, the "wet wing" P-47Ms you tout had huge engine reliability
problems, which kept them grounded most of the time.

A truly essential aircraft you overlook was the C-47 transport. "General
Dwight Eisenhower described the C-47 as one of the four machines that won
World War II, along with the bulldozer, 6x6 truck, and the landing craft."
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avc47.html

In the Pacific the early "essentials" were the Wildcat and the Dauntless.

JAPAN

In addition to the A6M Zero, I think you also need to include the two other
carrier aircraft Japan possessed at the outset: the "Val" dive bomber and
the "Kate" torpedo/level bomber. All three were essential to Japanese naval
air power, even after defeat at Midway.

I'm not sure any Japanese twin engine bomber was "essential." They all had
fatal design flaws (lack of armor and flammability) that made them little
more than flying targets. The Japanese air war was first won, then lost, by
their single engine aircraft.

Speaking of which, I don't see the Army Ki-84 as essential. IMHO that
plaudit goes the the Nakajima Hayabusa Ki-43, which like the Zero served
throughout the entire war.

USSR

I don't think you can exclude the Yak fighters, especially the Yak-9. I
will also include a surprising choice for an "essential" Soviet A/C: the
Bell P-39. It is remarkable how many Soviet aces not only flew that
aircraft, but greatly favored it.

My comments, FWIW.

Brian
  #10  
Old October 3rd 07, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:49:11 -0700, Gordon
wrote:

massive snipping

P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It
prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing
rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy
armour.


Hmmmmm... It seems in my memory that the rocket-firing German
fighters were mostly treated roughly by P-47s and the gunners aboard
the heavy bombers.


My next door neighbor when I lived in Corpus Christi was the CO of the
first P-38 squadron to deploy to North Africa. He'd spent the
immediate pre-war years as a test piliot Selfridge AAF near Detroit.
He had lots of stories about the number of aircraft that spent time on
the bottom of Lake St. Claire.

He also said the P-38 was a very good aircraft but that tangling with
109s was a tough job. The 38 was faster but the 109 turned better.
The 38s he took over had an artificial limitation on the turbocharger
compliments of Allison. After he lost five or six planes he said, "to
Hell with Allison" and removed the limit. That stopped aircraft
losses, but meant overhaul of the engine at about 100 hours. This
made the supply guys REAL unhappy as they were not capable (in the
beginning) of supplying sufficient engines. He described a meeting
where he got into a shouting match with a couple of Allison guys and a
couple of "feather merchant" generals. He was not relieved, but after
the North African campaign he was sent back home and spent the rest of
the time in the test and evaluation program. Went over as a major in
'42 and retired as a full bird in the late 50s.

His final opinion was that the 38 matured into a really fine aircraft
for the Pacific because of two engines and very long range. It was a
superb photo bird and decent ground attack aircraft (although, like
any any liquid cooled engined aircraft, the cooling system was an
Achilles Heel). He thought the P-47 was the AAF premier CAS aircraft.

He's been dead some years now. He was a cool guy to drink beer with.

B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war.
Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger


Not sure if we actually "needed" the Avenger. The IJN was primarily
bombed out of existance, not torpedoed out of existance (not counting
the tremendous job done by the Silent Service, of course).


The Avenger was an excellent scout, glide bomber, and gave yeoman (if
largely unhearled service) operating off CVEs. If you've ever seen
one on the deck of a CVE you'll get some idea of what big airplane on
little deck really means!!!!! :-)

It was also the first COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery) aircraft. Mail
is a REAL morale booster so that, alone, might make it "needed." ;-)


Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations;


A Navy Captain told me, "That _____-___ ____ of ____ wasn't worth the
trouble - we were forced to take it by politicians." He was a loyal
Grumman customer and saw no need whatever for the F4U.


There are countervieling opinions. :-)

The Marines made good use of the F4U and it would serve through Korea
(long after the F6F was history). Like the P-38 it seemed to mature
well.

Hellcat did a good enough job.


You have a talent for understatement.


Indeed.

And let's not forget the F4F that carried the battle for about the
first two years of the War, then joined the TBM on the CVEs as first
rate U-boat killers.

 




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