Glider Fatality in WA

I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees, this
makes me wonder. In a glider with a span of let's say 15 to 18 m you
probably end up hitting a tree with one or two wings. An article in our club
magazine about outlanding mentioned that stick full forward and
intentionally ground-looping as the method of choice. The stick forward
would bring the tail up and prevent it from snapping off. Speed would be
down and the glider and more importantly yourself would survive. Anyway,
there is no more damage than hitting a tree with a wing.


Joeri.

"Eric Greenwell" schreef in bericht
...
Shawn Curry wrote:


It got me thinking about what I would do in the same situation. It
sounds like he made a reasonable choice by adding some length to his
final by doing some turns. Someone mentioned the field was 2000
feet or so.

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50 feet
sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already
slow and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured
is that it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the
drill at that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I
do know I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and
stop with the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the
situation he was in, I could see how it ended badly.

In the situation described above, I think the only option left is full
spoiler, dive steeply and put it on the ground as soon as possible, then
use full wheel brake and full forward stick. If that didn't stop the
glider in time, aiming between the trees as they approach might avoid
serious injury, as likely the speed would be slow by the time of collsion.

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I am both saddened and angered by the recent carnage in the glider
community. There is no excuse for a stall-spin accident during an approach.
None, nada, zilch! Not in a glider, not in any aircraft.
Folks, see that little yellow triangle on your airspeed indicator? That is
the manufacturers recommended minimum approach speed. You should not go
below that speed on approach unless you are over the numbers and prepared to
land. For winds and gusts, you can add up to 10 knots to that speed but do
not allow your speed to go below it.
If you have a motor glider and you are landing with power on, after setting
up to land and reducing power to idle, do not touch the power lever. If you
have to use power to complete the landing, you have failed and should not be
flying motor gliders.

If you don't have a little yellow triangle, find out your stall speed in a
turn in your normal landing configuration. (Normally with partial spoilers
and gear down.) Add 30% to that speed and use that as your
never-go-below-on-approach speed.

I don't entirely buy the close-to-the-ground airspeed illusion but I can't
entirely discount it either.

In any aircraft, fly by airspeed and attitude. If the airspeed isn't where
it should be, adjust the glider attitude to make it so. A personal attitude
adjustment may be in order, as well. If you are not pleased with the
precision of your approach, practice, practice and practice until you are.

Be careful out there.

Allan


"Joeri Cools" wrote in message
...
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to
make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees,
this
makes me wonder.
...Snip...

Joeri.

Here, here!

Bill Daniels

"ADP" wrote in message
...
I am both saddened and angered by the recent carnage in the glider
community. There is no excuse for a stall-spin accident during an
approach.
None, nada, zilch! Not in a glider, not in any aircraft.
Folks, see that little yellow triangle on your airspeed indicator? That
is
the manufacturers recommended minimum approach speed. You should not go
below that speed on approach unless you are over the numbers and prepared
to
land. For winds and gusts, you can add up to 10 knots to that speed but
do
not allow your speed to go below it.
If you have a motor glider and you are landing with power on, after
setting
up to land and reducing power to idle, do not touch the power lever. If
you
have to use power to complete the landing, you have failed and should not
be
flying motor gliders.

If you don't have a little yellow triangle, find out your stall speed in a
turn in your normal landing configuration. (Normally with partial
spoilers
and gear down.) Add 30% to that speed and use that as your
never-go-below-on-approach speed.

I don't entirely buy the close-to-the-ground airspeed illusion but I can't
entirely discount it either.

In any aircraft, fly by airspeed and attitude. If the airspeed isn't
where
it should be, adjust the glider attitude to make it so. A personal
attitude
adjustment may be in order, as well. If you are not pleased with the
precision of your approach, practice, practice and practice until you
are.

Be careful out there.

Allan


"Joeri Cools" wrote in message
...
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to
make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a
steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees,
this
makes me wonder.
...Snip...

Joeri.

Joeri Cools wrote:
I've been thaught the two methods. In Belgium an instructor told me to make
S-turns when high on final, in France this seems to be illegal and a steep
dive with full spoilers is recommended. About aiming between the trees, this
makes me wonder. In a glider with a span of let's say 15 to 18 m you
probably end up hitting a tree with one or two wings.

The intent was to get the fuselage between the trees, not the entire
glider (the trees are too close to do this, judging from the pictures of
the field). The wings would take most of the impact, and the cockpit
might be spared entirely.

An article in our club
magazine about outlanding mentioned that stick full forward and
intentionally ground-looping as the method of choice. The stick forward
would bring the tail up and prevent it from snapping off. Speed would be
down and the glider and more importantly yourself would survive. Anyway,
there is no more damage than hitting a tree with a wing.

A ground loop might be even better, especially if there is a fence. I
also wonder how well the glider could be steered, if the nose is down
and full wheel brake is applied. In that position, a ground loop might
happen even without the pilot's efforts. Since there was a tail wind, a
wing might already be on the ground.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Airnav lists the runway length at 2100'. The Terraserver image from
1998 shows it is about 2300'-2400' from the trees at one end to the
trees at the other end. I've never been there, but the lengths and
images suggest a field with very small margins for error.

Being able to loose enough energy to be slow and midfield at 50 feet
sounds like he achieved his goal all too well. 1000 feet to land
from 50 feet sounds tight but doable especially if you're already
slow and need to speed up to do a proper flare. The thing I figured
is that it would *look* tight and maybe impossible especially if the
drill at that field is to land on the numbers (I don't know this). I
do know I've never been drilled with "Fly over most of the runway and
stop with the nose at the far end of the runway." If this was the
situation he was in, I could see how it ended badly.

In the situation described above, I think the only option left is full
spoiler, dive steeply and put it on the ground as soon as possible, then
use full wheel brake and full forward stick. If that didn't stop the
glider in time, aiming between the trees as they approach might avoid
serious injury, as likely the speed would be slow by the time of collsion.

I'm not sure I would think of this if I were in that situation, as the
ground would seem to be going by rapidly with the tailwind, and the
trees would likely look very threatening.

I once landed my DG-400 (1,000 lbs gross) on a 1,200 ft runway,
stopping a little more than halfway. I wanted to clear a stand pipe on
one side of the runway, so I gave up about 200 ft. This means I really
used about 500 ft to stop. This was a real life situation-not a
simulated one. This guy, flying a lighter glider than mine, should
have been able to get down from 50 ft and be fully stopped with 1,000
ft of runway he had left. In any case, going off the end of the runway
at low speed sure as hell beats going in vertical. S turning at 50 ft
is highly unadvisable.

Tom Seim
Richland, WA

"Mike Muncey" wrote in message
...
A 180 can only be safely done above 200 ft with good energy--just like a
rope-break. Even then, doing a 180 after over-shooting final is a good
way
to stall/spin.

Why?
Provided a well banked turn is used and appropriate speed (and 60knts is on
the low side) given the prevailing wind conditions It is perfectly valid
manouver even below 200ft. There are plenty of winch sites in the UK where
in calm conditions this is a recognised recovery from cable breaks
especially where landing straight ahead is not an option. In any sort of
wind a 180 is asking for trouble as you will be landing downwind but a 270
to land cross wind may be valid or even a 360. S Turns are no longer taught
in the UK on the basis that it will rarely help your position with regard to
the remaining landing length and loses more height than a 360. (Each S turn
is effectively a min of 180 and normally 360 + increased drag from the 3
changes in direction) In addition a 360 should increase your landing room
provided it is not calm as the wind will sweep you back down the runway at
the very least you will not be any worse off. The big problem with turns
executed near ground is the tendency to haul back due to ground proximity,
over ruddering to try and get round quicker and the mistaken psycological
belief that a shallow turn is better. It is remarkable how little height a
modern glider loses in a 360 provided it is flown acurately. In the UK great
emphasis is given to low accurate flying before you go solo at a winch site.
My last Aero cable break was 150ft over the end of the runway in calm
conditions and in that scenario a 180 was the right thing to do. That said
the only time you should be executing these sort of manouvers (Low turns)
is off a break or other emergency.
However IMHO the biggest cause of landings going wrong is too short a final
appoach or low circuit leading to the pilot cramping the final leg giving
the pilot a higher workload and less time to realise that things are going
to pot. A high longer final approach is inherently safer as the pilot has
minutes rather than seconds to recognise an over/undershoot and has more
alternatives to correct his/her mistake. Obviously wind sheer, thermals and
turbulance can cause difficulties but if the approach starts off right with
half brakes then you have a reasonable amount of leeway either way in most
gliders. How many of us manage finals on 1/2 brakes as opposed to full every
time? Next time you approach flare with full brakes ask yourself what would
happen if you had hit extra lift and why you had full brakes.
Remember it is rarely the final action that is the real killer but the
events that got you in that position to start with.
Stay Safe Fly High

Stephen

Although we can focus on the maneuvers that occurred in the last seconds
before the crash, we shouldn't forget that there were mistakes leading
up to that point that should be considered. What was his altitude at
the IP, was he checking things along the way (TLAR)? Did he turn in too
soon (turn to base). It's rarely one single mistake that leads to
accidents, but a compilation.

Mark Nyberg wrote:
On Sunday afternoon June 19th Joseph Patton died in a glider accident
at Bergseth Field near Enumclaw, WA. Joe had been flying for a few
hours in his motorglider, came in for landing with too much altitude,
stalled and crashed. Joe died instantly.

There will be a visitation (opportunity to pay last respects and talk
with his family) on Friday June 25th from 4 to 8 PM at the
Bonney-Watson Funeral Home. The funeral home is located at 1732
Broadway (between Denny and Pine, across the street from the Seattle
Central Community College) in Seattle on Capitol Hill. Parking is
available on the north side of the funeral home.

Funeral Services will be held in the chapel at that same funeral home
on Saturday June 26th at 11:00 AM.

"Mark Zivley" wrote in message
m...
Although we can focus on the maneuvers that occurred in the last seconds
before the crash, we shouldn't forget that there were mistakes leading
up to that point that should be considered. What was his altitude at
the IP, was he checking things along the way (TLAR)? Did he turn in too
soon (turn to base). It's rarely one single mistake that leads to
accidents, but a compilation.

Exactly: Speaking about pattern planning in general, rather than this sad
incident in particular...

One problem with glider flying is that by the time you get in a position to
properly read the wind sock, your options may already be starting to narrow.

But what if you are so sure about the wind direction that you forget to
check the sock at all?

Suppose for just a moment that you manage to enter your downwind leg
without noticing that there has been a 180-degree wind shift since your launch.
On "downwind", you notice excessive altitude loss due to the undiagnosed
headwind and (thinking you had hit sink) turn base early. That headwind on your
"downwind" leg will now turn into an unexpected tailwind as soon as you turn
final from base--a base leg that is suddenly very close to the fence because the
wind has blown you towards the runway, rather than away from it as you expected.
You now find yourself high, with a high groundspeed, and already over the fence
with significant runway quickly disappearing behind you.

Now your options have REALLY narrowed!


Vaughn

At 02:48 26 June 2004, Stephen Haley wrote:

Why?
Provided a well banked turn is used and appropriate
speed (and 60knts is on the low side) given the prevailing

wind conditions It is perfectly valid manouver even
below
200ft.

Rope- and cable breaks occur across a wide variety
of conditions at a wide variety of altitudes. Sometimes
they come with obvious audible and visual cues. Sometimes
you don't know it's happened until you see that you're
not keeping up with the towplane.

The 200-foot altitude is generally chosen as a turnaround
gate because it leaves usually-adequate margin to recognize
the situation and effect a 180-degree turn even under
less-than-perfect conditions. Sometimes it's not enough.
Sometimes, as you point out, it has generous margin.

Going off on a tangent, the thing I observe about too
many of the recent accidents is that maneuvers intended
to protect the aircraft from minor damage are resulting
instead in loss of control with attendant major damage,
injury, dismemberment, and death. It harkens back to
the value trap that Pirsig invokes in _Zen and the
art...,_ where the monkey forgets to value its life
greater than the handful of grain that restrains its
fist in the trap.

More later -

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

Going off on a tangent, the thing I observe about too
many of the recent accidents is that maneuvers intended
to protect the aircraft from minor damage are resulting
instead in loss of control with attendant major damage,
injury, dismemberment, and death.

Hi Bob,

Today we had the service for Joe, it was joyful and tearful......both
emotional states keenely balanced and teeter-tottering back and forth
within moments of each other. It was obvious by the family and friends
that attended, he was loved, repected and cherished.......he WILL be
missed.

Ironic about your tangent statement; since that is what we observed as
well.

Suffice to say that there were several small factors that did lead to
this accident. The sum total resulted in the fatal stall spin......but
taken individually were most likely opportunities for learning, but in
total were overwhelming.

This is not the post to enunerate that list......perhaps we should
start a new thread about lessons learned.

Regards,
Brad

PS.....Bob, your hand-cut fillet file is on the way!