Departing IFR at SMO w/ Tower Closed

Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

If the TRACON is issuing radar vectors off the ground, then, as I quoted
from the AIM, that would supersede any ODP. But ATC is then responsible
for obstacle clearance, of course.


How can they issue radar vectors before you're in radar contact?

They know they will have radar contact within a "reasonable" period of
time after takeoff. KMRY is the same way with the radar site several
miles from the airport.

It's all a matter of how the region and the facility determine what will
work for their radar coverage and airspace.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:01:05 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
If the TRACON is issuing radar vectors off the ground, then, as I quoted
from the AIM, that would supersede any ODP. But ATC is then responsible
for obstacle clearance, of course.

How can they issue radar vectors before you're in radar contact?

This has come up before. If SMO is Class E surface area when the tower is
closed (and it probably is), then the heading to fly after takeoff can be
specified by ATC. Maybe there is a DVA. "After takeoff", of course,
refers to leaving 400' AGL on runway heading.

In previous discussions, there has been some confusion as to how the pilot
knows that the vector should be considered a "radar vector" and I don't
think there's been a real clear-cut answer. Certainly happens at big city
airports; and it wouldn't surprise me if that was in effect at SMO in the
shadow of LAX.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:01:05 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:


This has come up before. If SMO is Class E surface area when the tower is
closed (and it probably is), then the heading to fly after takeoff can be
specified by ATC. Maybe there is a DVA. "After takeoff", of course,
refers to leaving 400' AGL on runway heading.

SMO is Class E at 700 feet agl when the tower is closed.

So far as I know there are no DVAs other than at some USAF facilities.
SMO would be "de facto" DVA to the west because of the ocean. To the
east, there are tall buildings and some mountains although the mountains
are easily avoided with a vector.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 03:44:39 -0800, Tim wrote:

Yes, but...there are many worse locations where they vector below the
MVA and do not, in fact, assure any obstacle clearance below MVA. It is
a very obscure area.

Obscure?

7110.65 5-6-1c and 5-6-3 seem pretty clear on when radar vectors below MVA
are allowed.

At which facilities is ATC issuing vectors and NOT assuring obstacle
clearance?

How are they communicating to the pilot that these vectors do not assure
obstacle clearance?

If, in fact, they are issuing vectors without assuring obstacle clearance,
or without actively soliciting the pilot concurrence with these vectors,
then this seems to me to be a dangerous practice, and not in accord with
ATC published procedures. It should be corrected.


=============================
You've mentioned this a few times.

What are those specific instructions when departing IFR from SMO with the
tower closed?

I don't know. I know the airspace constraints of that location but, as
I said in a previous post, I have not flown IFR out of KSMO.

It seems to me that you're just guessing at what might be going on. You
may well be correct, but the information I have gleaned from your posts
does not seem to me to be terribly useful.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Dan Thompson" wrote in message
om...

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E
or what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?


Class D airspace can become Class E or Class G when the tower is closed.

A surface area requires:

1.) Communications. Communications capability with aircraft which normally
operate within the surface area must exist down to the runway surface of the
primary airport. This communications may be either direct from the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the surface area or by rapid relay through
other communications facilities which are acceptable to that ATC facility,
such as a FSS.


2.) Weather Observations. Weather observations must be taken at the
surface area's primary airport during the times the surface area is
designated. The weather observation can be taken by a Federally
certificated weather observer and/or by a Federally commissioned weather
observing system.

If the tower is responsible for taking weather observations, then when the
tower closes the airspace must become Class G. If the tower serves as the
rapid communications relay for the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
surface area, then the airspace must again become Class G when the tower
closes, even if weather observations are still taken by another entity, such
as an AWOS or ASOS.

If communications still exist and weather observations are still taken after
the tower closes, then the airspace can become Class E or Class G. It will
become Class E if necessary to accommodate instrument procedures if such
action is justified and/or in the public interest. The following factors
are among those that are considered:

1. Type of procedure including decision height or minimum descent
altitude.

2. The actual use to be made of the procedure, including whether it is
used by a certificated air carrier or an air taxi/commuter operator
providing service to the general public.

3. The operational and economic advantage offered by the procedure,
including the importance and interest to the commerce and welfare of the
community derived by the procedure.

4. Any other factors considered appropriate.

"Tim" wrote in message
news:KRJbf.3346$zu6.1726@fed1read04...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although I
have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a heading to
maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would supercede the
ODP.


SMO does not have a surface area when the tower is closed, ATC cannot
specify direction of takeoff or turn after takeoff. If it is necessary to
specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, it must be issued so
as
to apply only within controlled airspace. An assigned heading does not
supersede the ODP, compliance with an ODP is the pilot's prerogative.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

How can they issue radar vectors before you're in radar contact?


Why not? The aircraft's position is known to a high degree of accuracy.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Tim" wrote in message
news:KRJbf.3346$zu6.1726@fed1read04...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although I
have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a heading to
maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would supercede the
ODP.



SMO does not have a surface area when the tower is closed, ATC cannot
specify direction of takeoff or turn after takeoff. If it is necessary to
specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, it must be issued so
as
to apply only within controlled airspace. An assigned heading does not
supersede the ODP, compliance with an ODP is the pilot's prerogative.


As I said, I haven't done it. I suspect, though, if someone started off
on something other than the assigned heading SoCal would be all over
them as soon as they saw any deviation. By that time, the departure
would almost certainly be above 700 feet, agl, and SoCal would have
absolute control. LA Airport has two ASRs, north and south. The north
side sees secondary targets well below 700 feet, agl, near SMO.

wrote in message newsWRcf.331$7A.96@fed1read04...

As I said, I haven't done it. I suspect, though, if someone started off
on something other than the assigned heading SoCal would be all over them
as soon as they saw any deviation. By that time, the departure would
almost certainly be above 700 feet, agl, and SoCal would have absolute
control.

No they wouldn't. If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in
an ATC clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's
prerogative.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

wrote in message newsWRcf.331$7A.96@fed1read04...

As I said, I haven't done it. I suspect, though, if someone started off
on something other than the assigned heading SoCal would be all over them
as soon as they saw any deviation. By that time, the departure would
almost certainly be above 700 feet, agl, and SoCal would have absolute
control.


No they wouldn't. If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in
an ATC clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's
prerogative.


I accept that, for sake of discussion. But, once the aircraft enters
Class E airspace, and the TRACON sees it on radar, are you telling me
that the TRACON does not have absolute control over the aircraft at that
point in time?