Cost of ownership

I am sure this has been kicked about before, but times (and prices)
change.

Anyone want to share their experience on the real cost of ownership of
a modern glass ship (aside from purchase price)? I got a ballpark
estimate from Costello Insurance for a $50K glider/trailer that ran
about $1450/year for insurance. What do you spend on maintenance,
inspections, taxes, etc? I am comparing this to a rent/borrow
situation, so the cost of flying (tows, retrieves, hotels, etc.) don't
count, but tie downs and things like that, do.

Thanks for any insights.

Matt (Jr.)

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:51:38 -0700, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

I am sure this has been kicked about before, but times (and prices)
change.

Anyone want to share their experience on the real cost of ownership of a
modern glass ship (aside from purchase price)? I got a ballpark
estimate from Costello Insurance for a $50K glider/trailer that ran
about $1450/year for insurance. What do you spend on maintenance,
inspections, taxes, etc? I am comparing this to a rent/borrow
situation, so the cost of flying (tows, retrieves, hotels, etc.) don't
count, but tie downs and things like that, do.

When I sat down and did the sums a few years back (2003/4) here in the UK,
the numbers said 70 hours a year was the break point: below that it was
better to fly club gliders (my club has two Discii and a Peg 90) at
around £30/hour and above running a used glider in the ASW-19/20/Pegase
category was cheaper. That's assuming solo ownership. A two person
syndicate would obviously move the break point down to 35 hours.

To put UK numbers on this: I currently am sole owner and operator of an
H.201 Libelle. This year its cost me a bit under £2400 to operate. That
includes insurance, trailer parking on the field, annual inspection and
all normal operating costs including minor trailer repairs.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

check out this article, might help: http://www.valleysoaring.net/newslet...20Articles.pdf

On Oct 24, 7:51*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
I am sure this has been kicked about before, but times (and prices)
change.

Anyone want to share their experience on the real cost of ownership of
a modern glass ship (aside from purchase price)? *I got a ballpark
estimate from Costello Insurance for a $50K glider/trailer that ran
about $1450/year for insurance. *What do you spend on maintenance,
inspections, taxes, etc? *I am comparing this to a rent/borrow
situation, so the cost of flying (tows, retrieves, hotels, etc.) don't
count, but tie downs and things like that, do.

Thanks for any insights.

Matt (Jr.)

I'm sure others will bombard you with their cost analysis' and lots of
numbers - so I'll take a different tack. The cost is really not a
factor, in my opinion - you will spend as much as you have available
to fly. If it's on rentals, more money equals more flight time,
including checkouts at new locations, etc. If it's your own ship,
more money means more toys for the instrument panel, more trips to new
flying locations, contests, etc.

Unless you are retired and live in Minden, flight time is often
limited by available free time and suitable weather. If cost limits
flying time, become a commercial pilot and give rides, or a CFIG,
etc. It's doable.

In my opinion, the absolute best aspect of owning vs renting is being
able to setup your glider EXACTLY the way you want it, then go off for
3 - 5 hours at a time, not worrying about who has it next, and being
totally comfortable (or not, perhaps!) with all the neat gizmos in the
cockpit. Once you experience varios that work, GPS glide computers
that compute and don't lie, a comfortable chute, and a pee tube (!!!)
it's hard to go back to pattern bashing or twirlybirding in the local
rental beater. I find now that when my ship isn't available, I'll
take the low performance ships (K-13s, open cockpit 1-26) over rental
or club glass just for the retro pleasure of flying with no
functioning magic! I guess that makes me a bit of a snob
(glasshole?), but it does reduce competition for the nicer rentals/
club ships...

Next best is racing - not practical as a renter (perhaps as a club
member, especially in more enlightened countries than the good ol'
USA).

Bottom line - If you want to own - then buy what you can afford, make
it yours, then fly the devil out of it - whether its a Duster or a
Nimbus. You'll love it!

Kirk
66

On Oct 25, 4:17*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:51:38 -0700, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I am sure this has been kicked about before, but times (and prices)
change.

Anyone want to share their experience on the real cost of ownership of a
modern glass ship (aside from purchase price)? *I got a ballpark
estimate from Costello Insurance for a $50K glider/trailer that ran
about $1450/year for insurance. *What do you spend on maintenance,
inspections, taxes, etc? *I am comparing this to a rent/borrow
situation, so the cost of flying (tows, retrieves, hotels, etc.) don't
count, but tie downs and things like that, do.

When I sat down and did the sums a few years back (2003/4) here in the UK,
the numbers said 70 hours a year was the break point: below that it was
better to fly club gliders (my club has two Discii and a Peg 90) at
around £30/hour and above running a used glider in the ASW-19/20/Pegase
category was cheaper. That's assuming solo ownership. A two person
syndicate would obviously move the break point down to 35 hours.

To put UK numbers on this: I currently am sole owner and operator of an
H.201 Libelle. This year its cost me a bit under £2400 to operate. That
includes insurance, trailer parking on the field, annual inspection and
all normal operating costs including minor trailer repairs.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Which route you go depends very much on the available rental fleet
where you live and the club's attitude to flying. Many European clubs
have a lot of club ships available to their members that span the
whole spectrum from trainers to club class ships to modern racing
sailplanes. However, some clubs don't permit their ships to be flown
out of gliding range of the home field. Here in the USA, clubs
typically don't have such a wide variety of ships, but they can be
very cost-effective. (Our Tucson Soaring Club does not charge members
for the use of club ships - it's included in the monthly membership
fee - and we have several cross-country ships).

You will find that once you have your own ship, you will fly a lot
more. It's not unusual for owners to report that their flying hours
double with their own ship. Comparing costs isn't easy with this in
mind.

Insurance has typically been a half or more of the costs of ownership
- just double it as a first guess.

Mike

Oops - the total cost is $4600 per year so the breakeven is 83 hours
per year.

9B

On Oct 25, 9:10*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Oct 25, 4:17*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:



On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:51:38 -0700, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I am sure this has been kicked about before, but times (and prices)
change.

Anyone want to share their experience on the real cost of ownership of a
modern glass ship (aside from purchase price)? *I got a ballpark
estimate from Costello Insurance for a $50K glider/trailer that ran
about $1450/year for insurance. *What do you spend on maintenance,
inspections, taxes, etc? *I am comparing this to a rent/borrow
situation, so the cost of flying (tows, retrieves, hotels, etc.) don't
count, but tie downs and things like that, do.

When I sat down and did the sums a few years back (2003/4) here in the UK,
the numbers said 70 hours a year was the break point: below that it was
better to fly club gliders (my club has two Discii and a Peg 90) at
around £30/hour and above running a used glider in the ASW-19/20/Pegase
category was cheaper. That's assuming solo ownership. A two person
syndicate would obviously move the break point down to 35 hours.

To put UK numbers on this: I currently am sole owner and operator of an
H.201 Libelle. This year its cost me a bit under £2400 to operate. That
includes insurance, trailer parking on the field, annual inspection and
all normal operating costs including minor trailer repairs.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Which route you go depends very much on the available rental fleet
where you live and the club's attitude to flying. *Many European clubs
have a lot of club ships available to their members that span the
whole spectrum from trainers to club class ships to modern racing
sailplanes. However, some clubs don't permit their ships to be flown
out of gliding range of the home field. Here in the USA, clubs
typically don't have such a wide variety of ships, but they can be
very cost-effective. *(Our Tucson Soaring Club does not charge members
for the use of club ships - it's included in the monthly membership
fee - and we have several cross-country ships).

You will find that once you have your own ship, you will fly a lot
more. *It's not unusual for owners to report that their flying hours
double with their own ship. *Comparing costs isn't easy with this in
mind.

Insurance has typically been a half or more of the costs of ownership
- just double it as a first guess.

Mike

Matt -- In the broad SF Bay Area you have access to serious XC capable
ships via Williams Soaring (Duo, several ASW-24, ASW-27), BASA
(DG-1000S, DG-505, Pegase) or Silvarado Soaring (DG-505). You could
check with Soaring NV on their glider availability for solo XC use out
of Minden, they are all well equipped XC machines. Most of these are
well equipped for XC soaring, all belong to clubs or FBOs that
encourage XC use of their gliders and are several place gliders in the
Sierras at times or allowing safaris' and trips with their glider.
This is a much better access to rental XC gliders than many places in
the USA, if just getting to the locations and the club/FBO rules will
work for you. You also can easily find all the other costs such as tie-
down fees etc. You currenty use/share a Ventus so finding current
ownership costs can't be hard. For rental/club gliders you will have
to work out if their location or usage rules etc. are convenient for
you. This is likely to be the first order problem, it is just utterly
pointless worrying about anything else unless you know you actually
have a rental/club option that would work. Alternately ask around and
you might find people interested in a few way share on a glider.

The value of ownership is greatly increased freedom to fly when/
wherever and have the ship set up exactly as I like. I don't know how
to exactly value those but they are so high on my list that I did not
want to calculate any actual costs and and show any other choice was a
good one :-)


Darryl

Lastly - you might consider tiedown fees - both transient and long-
term depending on where you keep you glider when you are flying and
off season. I paid $85/month to keep my trailer in a hangar year-
round. These days I keep my glider at home and tie down assembled at
the airport on soaring weekends. That's probably $100 per year of
tiedown fees and $400 in incremental fuel versus driving without a
trailer (long drive for me). A trailer tiedown at Minden is $50/month
or so, or about the same depending on whether you bring the glider
home in the off-season.

Now the breakeven is 93 hours per year. If you fly only 50 hours per
year you are paying an extra $2300 per year to own versus rent.

9B

Andy wrote:
Lastly - you might consider tiedown fees - both transient and long-
term depending on where you keep you glider when you are flying and
off season. I paid $85/month to keep my trailer in a hangar year-
round. These days I keep my glider at home and tie down assembled at
the airport on soaring weekends. That's probably $100 per year of
tiedown fees and $400 in incremental fuel versus driving without a
trailer (long drive for me). A trailer tiedown at Minden is $50/month
or so, or about the same depending on whether you bring the glider
home in the off-season.

Now the breakeven is 93 hours per year. If you fly only 50 hours per
year you are paying an extra $2300 per year to own versus rent.

9B

It's actually childishly simple.

If what you want to do is have fun flying then - buy the best
performance you can afford.
That means you still have to have the money to fly.

There is a financial opportunity cost to owning a glider, sure. It is
even reasonably easy to work out. What is not easy to work out is the
opportunity cost of :
Not being able to get the XC ship on the day you have available and the
weather is booming - but you did not get to book it in time.
Not being familiar with the rental set up in the glider so you don't go
anywhere.
Not having the trailer sorted out - on your car, so retrieves are
nightmarish...


There are all sorts of other motivations for me -
Having my own glider works for me - I am much more confident and
prepared to fly and explore with my own glider.
You get to tow her to interesting places and fly.
You get to have access to her whenever you have spare time , and get to
fly.
Basically you get to fly a lot more = partly because a lot of the costs
are fixed, so more flying is effectively at zero marginal cost.

Then you have the pleasure of ownership, or in the sailplane world
curatorship. SO for instance I have taken my first ship from a pretty
tired 30+ year old with steam age instruments and a mess of a trailer to
a pretty sorted out XC ship with nice instruments and sealing. The
investment in time, at my billable rate is a poor investment. The
improvement in my sanity is invaluable. And the best part is when you
pass ownership on you get the investment back. Number 1 (std Cirrus) is
currently getting refinished and mistress number 2 (Kestrel 19) is in
use. So yes I would do it again - in fact I did do it again...

Neither of them was particularly expensive. Which is another point = the
difference in performance over the last 10-15 years has been small.
Handling and ergonomics have improved, but a 20-30 year old ships
performance is a lot less difference than the price difference.

So - again - buy the best you can afford. The financial investment
should break even and the investment in life is invaluable.

Bruce

Cut the Cost in 1/2.......get a Partner! or get Twice the Glider for
the same (or less) investment.