High Cost of Sportplanes

Dan wrote:

I did a research paper on union costs about four years back, there was a
small bit about foriegn shops also. I had to change a lot of my initial
ideas when the data did not support the idea that unions cost more. In the
end with three fellows assisting me we could not prove any significant
difference.

A firm I worked for made a decent living sub-contracting assembly operations
for heavily unionized manufacturers. At that time non-union labor in Maine
was significantly less expensive than unionized labor in the Boston area,
to say nothing of having greater productivity.

The sad thing is the unionized trades are supported in part by the
non-unionized workers. The history of US trade unions is primarily that of
each hog guarding his own trough.


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W P Dixon wrote:
That may be what Auto production makes, and probably is why they have so
much trouble making money. As I have said Airplane production does not pay
that well.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"LCT Paintball" wrote in message
news:a4qXe.378855$xm3.306281@attbi_s21...


Considering most production aircraft workers make from 10 to 15 bucks an
hour I don't see how you come up with 45 an hour.

Most auto workers in the US make closer to $25.00 per hour. By the time
you pay vacation, insurance, taxes and other unseen expenses, $45.00 per
hour is pretty reasonable.


Patrick;

Having been a Director of maintenance and worked in other management
positions. I can tell you that workmens comp for aircraft workers is
pretty high it is up there with construction workers and that lot. I
don't remember the exact breakdown but a rule of the thumb a couple of
years ago(late 90's),was $60 per hundred. For every hundred dollars in
salary FICA matching taxes,Workmans comp and other benefits made the
total cost to the employer $160. The other thing to remember is that
you are in business to make a profit not just break even. With that in
mind you are going to bill your employees time at a higher price than
just enough to cover his basic salary. The person on the line also has
to bring in enough to pay the office staff,janitors and and management.
For example if you pay your employee $20 an hour that is $800 a week.
Add to that The basic benefits and your cost is $1280 now that covers
him but we have to pay the rest of the company and its bills so we add
maybe 25% to that and we end up billing the client $1600 per week or
$40 an hour.It adds up fast!

Frank M.Hitlaw
Jakarta,Indonesia

W P Dixon wrote:
That may be what Auto production makes, and probably is why they have so
much trouble making money. As I have said Airplane production does not pay
that well.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"LCT Paintball" wrote in message
news:a4qXe.378855$xm3.306281@attbi_s21...


Considering most production aircraft workers make from 10 to 15 bucks an
hour I don't see how you come up with 45 an hour.

Most auto workers in the US make closer to $25.00 per hour. By the time
you pay vacation, insurance, taxes and other unseen expenses, $45.00 per
hour is pretty reasonable.


Patrick;

Having been a Director of maintenance and worked in other management
positions. I can tell you that workmens comp for aircraft workers is
pretty high it is up there with construction workers and that lot. I
don't remember the exact breakdown but a rule of the thumb a couple of
years ago(late 90's),was $60 per hundred. For every hundred dollars in
salary FICA matching taxes,Workmans comp and other benefits made the
total cost to the employer $160. The other thing to remember is that
you are in business to make a profit not just break even. With that in
mind you are going to bill your employees time at a higher price than
just enough to cover his basic salary. The person on the line also has
to bring in enough to pay the office staff,janitors and and management.
For example if you pay your employee $20 an hour that is $800 a week.
Add to that The basic benefits and your cost is $1280 now that covers
him but we have to pay the rest of the company and its bills so we add
maybe 25% to that and we end up billing the client $1600 per week or
$40 an hour.It adds up fast!

Frank M.Hitlaw
Jakarta,Indonesia

wrote in message
oups.com...

Having been a Director of maintenance and worked in other management
positions. I can tell you that workmens comp for aircraft workers is
pretty high it is up there with construction workers and that lot. I
don't remember the exact breakdown but a rule of the thumb a couple of
years ago(late 90's),was $60 per hundred.

That estimate is high. The Texas manual rate (I'm using TX because it is the
screen that happened to be open when I read your post) for NCCI code 3830 is
5.14 which is then modified by several factors but a company with a 1.0
experience mod would be looking at a 6.16/$100 of payroll rate.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote

That estimate is high. The Texas manual rate (I'm using TX because it is
the
screen that happened to be open when I read your post) for NCCI code 3830
is
5.14 which is then modified by several factors but a company with a 1.0
experience mod would be looking at a 6.16/$100 of payroll rate.

Right. He just had an extra zero in there. In NC, 15 years back, I was
paying $7.?? per hundred.
--
Jim in NC

I'm sorry if you thought that I meant that only the workmens comp was
$60 per $100. I meant that the entire package,health
insurance,FICA,vacations,uniforms,sick days, holidays and workmans
comp.
Now,admittedly I have hardly any experience in general aviation. All
my time has been with the airlines or 145 repair stations so that may
be a different animal. Speaking of different animals you should see
how it works on this side of the globe.

Frank M.Hitlaw
Jakarta,Indonesia

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:42:24 -0700, Richard Riley
wrote:



OK, go along on a thought experiment with me for a moment.

There are lots of machines out there that have a very natural upper
market limit. Let's say, steam rollers, combine harvesters and hook
and ladder fire trucks.

Suppose those vehicles were free. You have to pay for gas, insurance,
maintenance and storage, but if you want a hook and ladder, you just
go pick one up.

How many people would do so?

Well, every fire department would have a couple. And there would be
the occasional fire truck enthusiast - there's one that lives down the
street from me, who has a beautiful pumper truck from the early 50's.
It's his hobby. But most people wouldn't choose fire trucks for their
hobby.

How many people would sign up for a free Cessna 172?

I'm guessing a couple of hundred thousand. It's just a guess. But
think about this. How many times have you offered to take someone
flying, and have them turn you down? It's just not their thing.
..
25 years ago, still giddy from my new private ticket, I offered to pay
for flight training for any or all of my twenty-something employees.
Not one accepted and only two ever wanted to go flying.

And the famous words of my sweet wife, "I've been, don't ask me
again".

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:04:40 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"W P Dixon" wrote

Well taxes come out of the employees
checks, but you do have to pay the workers comp stuff on them which can be
a
pain in the rear.

Check on that, and you will found to be wrong. Worker's comp must be paid
for anyone who employs more than 3.

Varies by state. From not at all to mandatory.

To which Gordon Baxter replied, "That's what my last wife said."

Jim


And the famous words of my sweet wife, "I've been, don't ask me
again".

In article ,
Richard Riley wrote:



OK, go along on a thought experiment with me for a moment.

There are lots of machines out there that have a very natural upper
market limit. Let's say, steam rollers, combine harvesters and hook
and ladder fire trucks.

Suppose those vehicles were free. You have to pay for gas, insurance,
maintenance and storage, but if you want a hook and ladder, you just
go pick one up.

How many people would do so?

Well, every fire department would have a couple. And there would be
the occasional fire truck enthusiast - there's one that lives down the
street from me, who has a beautiful pumper truck from the early 50's.
It's his hobby. But most people wouldn't choose fire trucks for their
hobby.

How many people would sign up for a free Cessna 172?

I'm guessing a couple of hundred thousand. It's just a guess. But
think about this. How many times have you offered to take someone
flying, and have them turn you down? It's just not their thing.

There are an awful lot of people who don't care about driving. If
there was a nationwide mass transit system, or Star Trek teleporters,
or sliding walkways, they wouldn't have cars. They don't care about
how they move from place to place, they just want to get where they're
going.

For those people, light airplanes are a poor choice for transport.
Light jets, taking off on the hour every hour, are much more
convenient. They don't want to worry about the hangar, and the
annual, and the weather brief. They just want to get to grandma's
house.

I think that with a big enough price drop we could increase the size
of the market. But I'm not at all confidant that we could increase it
greatly. I'd be surprised if we could double it.

You know, your point seems well thought out and entirely valid. So in
many respects I'm going to have to concede that I agree with you. But,
two things still bug me. One, I really think that if flying were
actually affordable, the number of interested parties would suddenly
spike, more than one might expect.

And two, volume considerations aside, I can't help but wonder what's
really going on at Cessna. I wish I knew how many pencil pushers they
employ per actual worker, for example.

The cost of a new 150 in 1966 was $7000. In 1977 it was $14,000. Both
those numbers seem to me to be considerably less than an average skilled
worker's annual salary at the time.

So why can't we have a $35,000 airplane today? No damn reason in the
world that I've yet seen explained. When production stopped in the
1980's, the high cost of liability insurance was the given reason. Then
we had the big reform, and Cessna fired up the stoves again. When the
price of the new birds was announced, I felt completely betrayed. And
disgusted.