dropped in D

Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

No. How can you remain clear when you are right in the middle of it?




I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?

Yes.


You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C

Yes.


,D,

No.


then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.

What? In class B you are essentially IFR and will be separated from
everyone else. In class C you may or may not be separated. Some class
C facilities make their controllers separate all aircraft from all
others, most don't. In class D you get nothing except a generic traffic
call.


An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.

No, absolutely not. It is 100% the responsibility of approach to
contact the tower. And your altitude isn't relavant. As an example at
my tower/TRACON the TRACON owns the airspace up to 12,000. We let the
tower have about 1500 feet AGL. That doesn't mean however that the
TRACON can bring overflights right over the airport at 2000 AGL without
coordinating with the tower. Any airplane that the TRACON is working
that is going over the airport has to be coordinated with the tower,
even if you are at 12,000, because the tower has automatic releases for
all departures. Same thing if Salt Lake is working a VFR overflight at
12,500 or an IFR overflight at 13,000. He has to call me to point out
that traffic to me. Now you would have to know what kind of agreement
between the tower and its approach facility is in effect. Of course you
have no way of knowing that. That's why overflights are coordinated
with the tower from the approach controller.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:1JeYa.55203$cF.19683@rwcrnsc53...

No, absolutely not. It is 100% the responsibility of approach to
contact the tower. And your altitude isn't relavant. As an example at
my tower/TRACON the TRACON owns the airspace up to 12,000. We let the
tower have about 1500 feet AGL. That doesn't mean however that the
TRACON can bring overflights right over the airport at 2000 AGL without
coordinating with the tower. Any airplane that the TRACON is working
that is going over the airport has to be coordinated with the tower,
even if you are at 12,000, because the tower has automatic releases for
all departures. Same thing if Salt Lake is working a VFR overflight at
12,500 or an IFR overflight at 13,000. He has to call me to point out
that traffic to me.


No he doesn't.

Maule Driver wrote:
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

Maule Driver,

This was the subject of a long thread some time ago.

The bottom line is:

It is NOT the responsibility of a pilot receiving radar services
to coordinate with each surface area he flies through. (if he
is landing in that surface area, ordinarily radar services would
be terminated prior to entering it)

The facility providing the radar services is supposed to coordinate,
and maintaining contact with them counts under the communication
requirement of the FARS.

I have heard before that there are some areas where this does
not happen, but it is spelled out quite clearly in the controller's
regulations (7110.65) it is supposed to.

The particular situation described is problematic, because the
facility providing radar services terminated them w/out a handoff.
In that circumstance, I personally would probably contact the tower
immediately, including in my call up something like "I had
radar services from XXXX, I assume they coordinated with you".
(because that's what's supposed to happen).

Cheers,
sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Maule Driver wrote:
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it
is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

The bottom line is:

It is NOT the responsibility of a pilot receiving radar services
to coordinate with each surface area he flies through. (if he
is landing in that surface area, ordinarily radar services would
be terminated prior to entering it)

The facility providing the radar services is supposed to coordinate,
and maintaining contact with them counts under the communication
requirement of the FARS.

Makes sense and I stand corrected. Thanks.

I was trying to think through the meaning of 'radar services' and 'flight
following'. I was thinking that you are not bound to maintain a heading or
an altitude while under FF (right?). So that would mean that you can
deviate from your reported heading and altitude and enter Class D without
necessarily notifying the controller. Or am I way off base here and need to
do some reading?

The particular situation described is problematic, because the
facility providing radar services terminated them w/out a handoff.
In that circumstance, I personally would probably contact the tower
immediately, including in my call up something like "I had
radar services from XXXX, I assume they coordinated with you".
(because that's what's supposed to happen).

Really puts the focus on situational awareness when that happens!

Maule Driver wrote:

I was trying to think through the meaning of 'radar services' and 'flight
following'. I was thinking that you are not bound to maintain a heading or
an altitude while under FF (right?). So that would mean that you can
deviate from your reported heading and altitude and enter Class D without
necessarily notifying the controller.

Sure, you can change heading and altitude without necessarily
notifying the controller, but situational awareness and common
sense do enter into it.

The radar controller will make a decision on whether or not he
needs to coordinate based on your altitude and direction of
flight. If you need to change either or both, and that
change might put you in a surface area your original altitude
and heading would keep you clear of, it may not be a regulatory
requirement to communicate your intentions but it only makes
sense IMO.

The particular situation described is problematic, because the
facility providing radar services terminated them w/out a handoff.
In that circumstance, I personally would probably contact the tower
immediately, including in my call up something like "I had
radar services from XXXX, I assume they coordinated with you".
(because that's what's supposed to happen).

Really puts the focus on situational awareness when that happens!

Well, Steve may be correct that the communication requirements
have been met, but I'd personally contact the tower in those
circs, just in case there was a need to communicate; IME it
takes several minutes to establish communication and radar
contact with a busy approach facility, and I really don't
want to be distracted from keeping a sharp look-out when I'm close
to an airport, either.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
.com...

Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it
is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.


No. It is the responsibility of the radar controller to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace.


FAA Order 7110.65N Air traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.



You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.


The radar controller can issue vectors to VFR aircraft in Class B and Class
C airspace, but not in Class D airspace unless it is also a TRSA.

Arden Prinz wrote:
Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

First things first...
Have you filed out your Aviation Safety Reporting System form yet?

Go to: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

john smith wrote in message ...
Arden Prinz wrote:
Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

First things first...
Have you filed out your Aviation Safety Reporting System form yet?

Go to: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Thank-you for the suggestion. I have never submitted one of these.
That's a good idea and I may do just that. I just printed out the form.
I was hoping that maybe I didn't do anything wrong.

Arden

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
john smith wrote in message
...
Arden Prinz wrote:
Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

First things first...
Have you filed out your Aviation Safety Reporting System form yet?

Go to: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Thank-you for the suggestion. I have never submitted one of these.
That's a good idea and I may do just that. I just printed out the form.
I was hoping that maybe I didn't do anything wrong.

I don't think you entered class D improperly. But ASRS forms are helpful to
NASA even if you did nothing wrong.

--Gary


Arden

(Arden Prinz) wrote in message . com...
I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach. After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Interesting thread. I am curious to see what others think.

I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field. Hence,
I would have called McEntire's Class D.

I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D. I always suggest to the approach
controller that I get a freq change to call DuPage tower, and then
give him/her a call on the other side. It works out well as Dupage is
roughly the boundary between OHare's SW approach (133.50) and North
approach (120.55). So it is like a handoff, but with a few minutes
talking to DuPage tower between approach controllers.

-Nathan