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IFR in the 1930's



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 30th 03, 03:22 AM
Dick
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Default IFR in the 1930's

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.


"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments

and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught

in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida




  #2  
Old August 30th 03, 06:39 AM
Jan Carlsson
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Dick,

The first instrument flight was made 1919 by Jim Doolittle, with no
visibility at all. Good reading is the "I could never be so lucky again"
and also "The Spirit of ST Louis" (1953) The last one tells a lot about how
it was to be a mail pilot in the 20's

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com

"Dick" skrev i meddelandet
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments

and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught

in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida




  #3  
Old August 30th 03, 12:01 PM
David Megginson
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"Dick" writes:

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.


In his AvWeb piece on scud-running, Rick Durden mentions that the mail
pilots in the 1920's just kept flying lower until they could see the
ground, even if that meant skimming the tree-tops:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182679-1.html

By the 1930's, I imagine, some of them had gyroscopic instruments.
Perhaps Rick can point us to online references.


All the best,


David
  #4  
Old August 30th 03, 05:26 PM
Bill Daniels
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As a geezer who learned to fly "blind" with needle, ball and airspeed I can
say that in a slow, stable aircraft, that those are enough for rather
precise instrument flight. I can still fly a respectable partial panel NDB
approach with just those instruments + an altimeter. (BTW, I HATE a turn
coordinator.)

For me an attitude indicator and a DG are just icing on the cake.

Bill Daniels

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
...
You need the turn needle, ball, and airspeed at bare minumum.
And you'll have to be sharp to fly IMC under those conditions.

If I were planning to fly like this, I'd equip the thing
properly. Make it easier to stay alive...


Richard

Dick wrote:

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.

"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which

instruments
and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if

caught
in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball &

tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi

or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and

wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida



  #5  
Old August 30th 03, 05:36 PM
Ryan Young
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On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??


Dear Dick,

The comment about "Electric" too expensive puzzles me. Electric DGs and
Artifical Horizons are pricey, yes, but do you have a starter on your bird?
Then an electric turn coordinator will keep you upright, as you turn in a
direction where your whiskey compass is actually a useful instrument. Every
Cessna built since about the time I was born (1959) had one, you can get a
yellow tag one for about the price of a pair of Air Jordan basketball shoes.
A brand new one is less than a clutch job on my Honda.

Cheaper than a grave marker.

  #6  
Old August 30th 03, 06:41 PM
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Dick,

Since you indicated you did not wish to use a venturi, one alternative
that had been used in the 20-30s for sufficient vacuum/flowrate to reliably
operate a Turn and Bank is to tap off your motor's intake spider downstream
of the carb (on a Continental, you could use one of the pre-threaded primer
fitting holes). What you do is start with a fitting a small hole (~#40 or
so) and, by a series of iterative enlargements, adjust until the level of
desired vacuum was reached at cruise power. This is similar to the standby
vacuum systems now sold for modern aircraft but, as the old vacuum T&Bs
needed less vacuum levels/airflow, one would normally have sufficient vacuum
throughout most flight regimes.

Just a thought.

Mike Bednarek


"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments

and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught

in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida




  #7  
Old August 30th 03, 10:19 PM
Bill Daniels
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"Badwater Bill" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:26:02 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

As a geezer who learned to fly "blind" with needle, ball and airspeed I

can
say that in a slow, stable aircraft, that those are enough for rather
precise instrument flight. I can still fly a respectable partial panel

NDB
approach with just those instruments + an altimeter. (BTW, I HATE a turn
coordinator.)

For me an attitude indicator and a DG are just icing on the cake.

Bill Daniels


I agree with you Bill. The absolute minimum is a needle and ball,
airspeed, altimeter and compass. I like a few extras myself. If I
could only have one more instrument it would be a DG. If I could have
two, it would be a DG then a horizon. I also hate turn coodinators.
Pieces of crap. The turn needle is much better.

BWB

I should have said, "Needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter, CLOCK and wet
compass". Everything depended on being able to read a bouncing wet compass
and timing turns exactly.

Today we have all these fancy gadgets but most of the time we still depend
on the old wet compass for heading data. Every figured what you would do if
the wet compass goes TA while you are in the soup and all you have is a
manually set DG? Been there.

Bill Daniels

  #8  
Old August 30th 03, 11:28 PM
G.R. Patterson III
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Dick wrote:

Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught in
IFR conditions.


By the 30's, the mail was going by airlines. I assume you mean the old open
cockpit planes of the 20's (like the Pitcairn Mailwing or the earlier Jennie).
A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the relative
wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires, combined with the
ball and altimeter. This still isn't as good as a gyro stack, and the accident
rate was high. Lots of the pilots simply put the mail on the train if things
got too bad.

Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two
novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot,
but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either
the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's).

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.
  #9  
Old August 30th 03, 11:30 PM
G.R. Patterson III
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Badwater Bill wrote:


The turn needle is much better.


I had heard this, so that's what I put in my Maule when I bought it. Still
don't know why it's better, though.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.
  #10  
Old August 30th 03, 11:53 PM
David Megginson
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"G.R. Patterson III" writes:

A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the
relative wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires,
combined with the ball and altimeter.


I'm not too sure about the first two -- if relative wind told you
anything at all about whether the wings were level, we be able to use
something simpler than gyroscopic instruments for IFR today. It you
take the last two, ball and altimeter, and add the magnetic compass,
then it would be at least theoretically possible to fly straight
(-ish) and level (-ish) in IMC, though they probably just flew very
close to the ground, as Durden's article suggested.


All the best,


David
 




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