Soaring Community Consumer Warning

I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.

Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.

I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.

I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.

Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.

Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.

Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.

Bob DeLeon
Glider pilot and owner since 1997

You are mad that you aren't getting a free service because the provider of the free service has strings attached to your free use of the free service?

He's allowed to demand exclusive use if you place an ad, and you are allowed to tell him to buzz off.

He has not harmed you. Move on.

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:53:11 AM UTC-5, wrote:
You are mad that you aren't getting a free service because the provider of the free service has strings attached to your free use of the free service?



He's allowed to demand exclusive use if you place an ad, and you are allowed to tell him to buzz off.



He has not harmed you. Move on.

Bob,

The main reason I suspect Tim is listing For Sale ads is to promote traffic to his site. While there, you might check some of his merchandise and buy a tire or an HpH glider. This is a sensible and smart marketing move that seems to work for him. It is entirely up to him what conditions he attaches to that free listing service. He has no obligation to spell out those conditions in detail. It's really very simple: comply with his wishes or list someplace else. Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

Actually, I've spent a fair amount of money with him and his business. When I and my partner bought said glider for sale (12 years ago), we outfitted the entire panel save the ASI with his products. Also bought a parachute, Prandl probe and other accessories; over $5,000. Over the years, a few more hundred dollars has been spent with W&W for support goods.

This is how you treat a customer? In running my business, I don't state anything different than the original agreement. I placed my ad in good faith and in understanding WHAT I READ on his webpage. There was no statement of policies AGAINST placing your ad on another website. He implied 3 months later that SoaringCafe stole or copied over the ad and it was my obligation to take it down. In trying to understand his reason and explain that I placed it, he hung up on me as I was being civil in the discussion.

Your right--he can do whatever he pleases, including throwing in other policies after the deal. It's his business. I just hope you aren't given a switch deal and hung up on while trying to resolve it. Being a consumer and loyal to our community of glider owners and participants, I find using my consumer rights is justifiable in a public forum for actions like this. Hope you're not trying to sell a glider right now.

I know of another person who got an earful from Mara for listing a glider for sale on the other site. He pulled the other ad because he was afraid that he would be refused service if he needed supplies that only Mara had, but I'll bet when an alternate supplier is available the business will go elsewhere.

I'm all for multiple listings.

When I was in the market for my LAK-17a, I found the ad on Soaring Cafe.
Upon calling the seller, he told me that he'd removed the glider from the
market 6 months prior and thought all the ads had been taken down. I asked
him to keep my address should he change his mind, which he did. Had that ad
been taken down, I'd not have found my dream ship.

I'll keep my right/wrong opinions to myself on the main topic of this post,
but I agree with the original post concerning having the widest possible
dissemination of the advertisement.


"BobD" wrote in message
...
Knocking Tim and his business in really not justified.

Actually, I've spent a fair amount of money with him and his business. When
I and my partner bought said glider for sale (12 years ago), we outfitted
the entire panel save the ASI with his products. Also bought a parachute,
Prandl probe and other accessories; over $5,000. Over the years, a few more
hundred dollars has been spent with W&W for support goods.

This is how you treat a customer? In running my business, I don't state
anything different than the original agreement. I placed my ad in good faith
and in understanding WHAT I READ on his webpage. There was no statement of
policies AGAINST placing your ad on another website. He implied 3 months
later that SoaringCafe stole or copied over the ad and it was my obligation
to take it down. In trying to understand his reason and explain that I
placed it, he hung up on me as I was being civil in the discussion.

Your right--he can do whatever he pleases, including throwing in other
policies after the deal. It's his business. I just hope you aren't given a
switch deal and hung up on while trying to resolve it. Being a consumer and
loyal to our community of glider owners and participants, I find using my
consumer rights is justifiable in a public forum for actions like this. Hope
you're not trying to sell a glider right now.

Bob, I don't think we've met so I don't know what kind of person you are. No offense intended, but I also don't know what really transpired here; I learned long ago that there are often (always?) two sides to every story. I do know Tim has always been great in my dealings with him. I've bought things from him and sold stuff to and through him. If--and again, I mean no disrespect--everything went down exactly as you say it did, perhaps Tim was having a bad day (never happens to me!). Maybe he feels like some of the more recent entrants are siphoning away traffic from his site, which he depends on heavily in his business. So in my opinion, the responses you're getting here are from pilots like me who don't want to judge either one of you based on your--dare I say--indignant account because we don't know what really happened or why. But we are grateful for the service Tim has provided over the years. If you don't like the terms of his free service, you're free to go elsewhere. My experience dealing with the larger soaring vendors is that they're all great to work with.

Chip Bearden, glider pilot and owner since 1965
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Hi Bob,

He does the same thing when customers list gliders on the
www.glidersource.com web site. Another soaring community volunteer put a
lot of work into the www.glidersource.com web site. It is excellent. The
creator of www.glidersource.com is a glider pilot and trying to make a
valuable resource available. Tim's site is very valuable resource too,
but...

Paul Remde
_______________________

"BobD" wrote in message
...

I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and
perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim
Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for
free to help the community. Or so I thought.

Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a
niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding
from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So
letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort
of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases.
Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.

I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace
page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've
also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA
paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for
seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.

I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his
enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I
cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and
Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't
allow it"...period.

Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small
scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was
indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went
up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense
since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than
advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web
presence it different.

Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't
complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to
discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice
going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer
rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines
my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit
to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of
to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your
customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a
worse business attitude.

Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up
on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and
work with you.

Bob DeLeon
Glider pilot and owner since 1997

On Friday, March 22, 2013 12:49:11 AM UTC-4, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Bob, He does the same thing when customers list gliders on the www.glidersource.com web site. Another soaring community volunteer put a lot of work into the www.glidersource.com web site. It is excellent. The creator of www.glidersource.com is a glider pilot and trying to make a valuable resource available. Tim's site is very valuable resource too, but... Paul Remde

Tim's site is the default place to go to see what is for sale.
The other's a just posers. W&W is where the gliders get sold.
Tim has provided this service for many years and I think this is the first gripe I think I've ever heard.
Those of us that buy and sell sailplanes truely appreciate what he does for us.
Sometimes we might even buy something from him.
Thanks Tim- Keep up the nice work.
UH

Add my voice to that of Hank, Chip, Herb and Mark. Tim has worked hard to make Wings & Wheels THE place to sell gliders, and he does it to try to get more business. Duplicating your ad elsewhere is an attack on his model. If you want the best exposure to sell your glider, swallow your pride and make nice with Tim.

-John, Q3