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#1
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Typical glider depreciation?
What is a typical depreciation value for gliders that clubs/owners use
in accounting for the cost of gliders? Do you assume linear depreciation? (This is a difficult value to estimate, given the lack of easily available data for second-hand glider prices throughout a reasonable time span.) |
#2
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Typical glider depreciation?
On 8/7/2011 8:57 PM, David Reitter wrote:
What is a typical depreciation value for gliders that clubs/owners use in accounting for the cost of gliders? Do you assume linear depreciation? (This is a difficult value to estimate, given the lack of easily available data for second-hand glider prices throughout a reasonable time span.) It depends and the tax rules vary frequently, including some special qualifiers. If a choice is available, selection might be based on state personal property/tangible tax obligations and whatever implications might be tied to disposal and recapture. http://www.aviationattorneys.com/air...deductions.htm http://www.advocatetax.com/depreciation/formDepSav.php |
#3
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Typical glider depreciation?
For the USA -- Gliders are aircraft and the IRS says that the
depreciation schedule for an aircraft is 5 years (and only 5 years). The only way to depreciate it faster is by having your accountant take advantage of special "bonus depreciations plans" that are sometimes made available by the government. If you feel that your glider will depreciate (to a zero value) over a much longer period than the standard 5 years (as we all know is the case), it is legal to start with the purchase value and establish a "risidual value" at the end of the 5 years. The determination of this residual value is up to you (and your accountant) as long as it is based on some reality. for example: $50,000 starting value (purchase price) - $30,000 risidual value = $20,000 in "accounting value" lost in 5 years. Then your accountant can legally show $20,000 in depriciation over the first 5 years ($4,000/year). At the beginning of the 6th year you start over using the $30,000 "balance" as a starting point to reset the calculation -- all $30,000 over years 6-10 or set up a new residual value and keep going until all the value is depreciated. You and your accountant would analyze both scenarios to determine which method was the most "correct" for your particular glider and your particular accounting situation. Obviously, your yearly tax situation will be influenced by the depreciation method you choose. Steve Disclaimer -- the above is not accounting or legal advise. You accountant should be consulted to ensure that your plan of action is both legal and conforms to the "best accounting practices" that we should all strive to achieve. |
#4
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Typical glider depreciation?
Assuming you're interested for valuation reasons, rather than US tax
ones... I did some sums on the depreciation in real terms of an ASW20 over25 years, and got the answer of about 2.3% per annum. This was based on finding an original 1984 price of $28,000 for an ASW20C, and approximate asking prices in 2009 of $33,000, then depreciating according to the retail price index (US, I think, though I don't recall where I got that from). Could do with some more data points though. Paul |
#5
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Typical glider depreciation?
On Aug 10, 8:13*am, Paul Ruskin wrote:
Assuming you're interested for valuation reasons, rather than US tax ones... I did some sums on the depreciation in real terms of an ASW20 over25 years, and got the answer of about 2.3% per annum. This was based on finding an original 1984 price of $28,000 for an ASW20C, and approximate asking prices in 2009 of $33,000, then depreciating according to the retail price index (US, I think, though I don't recall where I got that from). Could do with some more data points though. Paul Depreciation of the value of gliders - especially European built - has been offset by the depreciation of the US dollar, which has dropped from around 0.8 to the Euro to over 1.4. This has nearly doubled the dollar cost of new gliders imported from Europe into the USA in the past ten years. This depreciation of the dollar has led to much less drop in value of gliders as they age in the US market. Mike |
#6
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Typical glider depreciation?
That's a fair point Mike. Let's try and collect some data.
Would people be prepared to post what they paid for their gliders in the past (Sterling, Euros, Dollars)? Further back the better. Then we could get some idea of actual depreciation, and take account of currency variations. Paul On Aug 10, 4:56*pm, Mike the Strike wrote: On Aug 10, 8:13*am, Paul Ruskin wrote: Assuming you're interested for valuation reasons, rather than US tax ones... I did some sums on the depreciation in real terms of an ASW20 over25 years, and got the answer of about 2.3% per annum. This was based on finding an original 1984 price of $28,000 for an ASW20C, and approximate asking prices in 2009 of $33,000, then depreciating according to the retail price index (US, I think, though I don't recall where I got that from). Could do with some more data points though. Paul Depreciation of the value of gliders - especially European built - has been offset by the depreciation of the US dollar, which has dropped from around 0.8 to the Euro to over 1.4. *This has nearly doubled the dollar cost of new gliders imported from Europe into the USA in the past ten years. *This depreciation of the dollar has led to much less drop in value of gliders as they age in the US market. Mike |
#7
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Typical glider depreciation?
On 8/10/2011 11:38 PM, Paul Ruskin wrote:
That's a fair point Mike. Let's try and collect some data. Would people be prepared to post what they paid for their gliders in the past (Sterling, Euros, Dollars)? Further back the better. Then we could get some idea of actual depreciation, and take account of currency variations. This is important: When you sell a glider, the price you get is not determined in any way by what you paid for it. So, I'm not persuaded that "depreciation" means anything in the very small glider market. Gliders that were identical when new at the factory can be so very different after 10 or 20 years for numerous reasons: - damage history (major repairs to none) - hours (20 hours a year to 250) - finish (pristine to cracking) - instruments (20 year old outdated stuff to the latest in everything) - trailer (hangar queen to a contest pilot's 10,000 miles a year) The popularity of particular models also greatly affects the value after 10 years, even if they are very similar in performance. And this: because of the swings in the currency market, the owners of two identical gliders bought only one or two years apart can have significantly different depreciations, simply because of the value of the dollar at the time of purchase. Here's an observation: I've sold four gliders since I started soaring in 1975. Three of them *appreciated*, only one *depreciated*. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz |
#8
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Typical glider depreciation?
I think all that you've said is true Eric. None the less, with enough
data it would be possible to see some trends - rather like the car guides that you can get (Parkers in the UK for example). I've heard several people comment that they've sold gliders for more than they paid. I don't know whether that remains the case after you allow for inflation (probably will in some cases - as you mention prices go up and down). I also observe that it's possible to buy a then state of the art glider from the 1960s for £5K, from the 1980s for £20K and a new one will cost you £100K. OK, not like for like, but my suspicion is that if you buy a new glider and keep it for a long time, it will depreciate. I'm a little curious as to by how much. Hence the request for data! Paul |
#9
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Typical glider depreciation?
On 8/11/2011 11:58 AM, Paul Ruskin wrote:
I think all that you've said is true Eric. None the less, with enough I also observe that it's possible to buy a then state of the art glider from the 1960s for £5K, from the 1980s for £20K and a new one will cost you £100K. OK, not like for like, but my suspicion is that if you buy a new glider and keep it for a long time, it will depreciate. If you keep it for a short time, it will almost always depreciate. Keep it for a long time, and it's a total guess about what will happen. If your currency tanks, you'll be delighted with the amount you sell it for, and you could even show it was a good investment; if the number of soaring pilots continues to shrink, you'll be selling into a buyer's market and the opposite will occur. I'm a little curious as to by how much. I just told you exactly what will happen: you will lose or gain money when you sell, and there is no way to know which it will be 10 years from now. Hence the request for data! You can't do it for the glider you end up buying - too many important parameters that can not be predicted or controlled, and like the investment people tell you "past performance does not guarantee future results". If this is just a fun thing you like to do, have at it, but don't even think about it if you want to own your own glider. Instead, buy one you can afford, that you can fly safely and enjoyably, fly the hell out it, and hope that A) prices are really high when you want to get out of the sport; B) Prices are really low when you want to get a different glider. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl |
#10
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Typical glider depreciation?
All, thanks for your replies.
I should clarify that this is about depreciation for valuation and price calculation in our club and not for tax purposes. What I am trying to come up with is a tariff for our club gliders. The goal is to charge enough in glider rental to maintain the assets of the club. Conceivably, this would mean not just to keep a fleet in the air, but to replace gliders as they age so we have reasonably recent gliders to fly. Depreciation may be a major component. How do other clubs deal with such issues? (To give more of a background: The club in question currently has a Schweizer 2-33 as training glider, and then a 1-26, a Pilatus B4 and a Grob 102 Astir, and a Piper Super Cub. I think this is somewhat typical for a number of smaller clubs in the US, and worth discussing. While I love the club and enjoy flying there, you will probably all agree with me that a reasonable forward-looking plan has to include an update of the fleet. That is why I'd like to figure out reasonable rental charges for those a/c, but also for potential upgrades.) |
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