Two die in Glider mid-air

John F,

I understand your cloud street advice, but don't understand "G and R
tasks". Would you please elaborate?

In the case I was describing, I was in a house thermal 3 miles from my
home field, gaining altitude prepatory to starting a TAT. We get
fairly frequent turboprop commuter aircraft running between 4000 to
6000 feet from NW to SE (and vice versa) close to that area (they're
the ones I described as changing course to avoid us gliders), but no
one could recall ever seeing a jet airliner that low going from SW to
NE. It was a strange situation, made worse by him apparently not
detecting me via TCAS or knowing of me via ATC - and of course, me not
seeing him until he was way too close!

-John

On Sep 10, 9:33 am, John Firth wrote:
Ann Welch, a many time steward at WGC s , always warned against setting G
and R tasks due to the risk of collision; one nearly got me; about 3 secs
warning.
If you are running a cloud street, use the L/R lift indications to turn
slightly; no longer will you be a "stationary" speck to the other pilot and
the wing movment will make you easier to see.
A climbing turn is even better.
John F

As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen



On 9 sep, 17:14, Darryl Ramm wrote:
jcarlyle wrote:
Transponders are not a magic shield.

I fly with a Mode S transponder in the busy Philadelphia / New York
airspace. I often see airliners diverting course to go around me
(particularly commuters), but then there was the Southwest 737 that
flew 300 feet directly over me. I was thermalling at 5700, he was
straight and level at 6000. Gliders in this area have a discrete
transponder code, and we know from conversations with ATC that they're
keeping track of us specifically as glider traffic. So, I know for
certain that (1) the Southwest pilot was aware of me (long before I
was aware of him), and (2) he was also aware that I was a glider.

I'm not standing on principle here, if I'd seen him sooner I would
have quit thermalling and flown 90 degrees to his track while losing
altitude (quickly). But it was a hazy day, I was thermalling, he was
doing 250 kts, and I just flat didn't see him until he was about a
mile away.

Moral - keep a good lookout, amd remember that stuff can happen in
spite of a transponder...

-John

Something is a little strange here as this seems well within the
altitude difference window that should have generated an RA. Which is a
big deal to the 737 crew both from the immediate required response to
the RA and subsequent reporting/paperwork.

Darryl- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

Bart,

Collision markings and transponder exist. Flarm has been on order for
a year, and is not yet available. I'm hoping (a) I get the Flarm and
(b) they implement ADS-B display _before_ I have another aerial
encounter.

-John

On Sep 11, 4:59 am, bart s wrote:
As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen

PowerFLARM does display 1090ES traffic now. It does not yet alert/warn
on 1090ES traffic threats. ADS-B especially with the screwed up
dual-link layer system being rolled out in the USA is a much larger
topic. Including how many threats out there today are actually 1090ES
data-out equipped. ADS-B data-out carriage for full participation,
Ground station coverage, ADS-B TIS-B and ADS-R support etc.

PowerFLARM portable units are about to roll out in the USA in greater
numbers - Urs updated here on that recently with info on the antenna
problems.

I think we have pretty good interest in PowerFLARM adoption in the USA
soaring community now. We could have been a lot further along and have
fewer dead pilots had we all, including the SSA, worked to more actively
encourage FLARM to enter the USA market years ago.

Darryl

jcarlyle wrote:
Bart,

Collision markings and transponder exist. Flarm has been on order for
a year, and is not yet available. I'm hoping (a) I get the Flarm and
(b) they implement ADS-B display _before_ I have another aerial
encounter.

-John

On Sep 11, 4:59 am, bart s wrote:
As a european and as a first hand experience from a mid air by the
FLARM system. It amazes me how still people can stick their head in
the sand and say Look-out is the only thing you need!

You need lookout supported by FLARM, supported by FLARM RADAR,
supported by TRANSPONDER for the big heavy metal, supported by
COLLISION MARKINGS on your plane..

and even then sometimes you find a plane passing you below that you
haven't spotted with your eyes first.

I was alerted by flarm in a thermal of another glider that flew in
front of me. he was hidden below my cockpit edge and out of my field
of vision. I was able to dive below him with 8 meters to spare !!
FLARM WORKS, Adopt it. If you start using it you will see your look-
out is poor sometimes....

Zen

On Sep 11, 9:41*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I think we have pretty good interest in PowerFLARM adoption in the USA
soaring community now. We could have been a lot further along and have
fewer dead pilots had we all, including the SSA, worked to more actively
encourage FLARM to enter the USA market years ago.

Be aware, I'm in a curmudgeonly mood today:

Perhaps 4 or 5 pilots have died in the past decade in the US in glider/
glider or glider/towplane accidents. During that same period, I
suspect 50 or 60 pilots have died from more mundane issues, like
collision with terrain, stall/spin, failure to connect the elevator,
etc.

As anyone who has been around the US soaring scene for a while knows,
when Joe Glider Pilot hits the rocks, fails to notice that the
spoilers are open on takeoff, or spins in the pattern, it was because
he was inadequately trained or should never have been a pilot in the
first place. When Famous Racing Pilot runs into another glider, or
crashes in trees and can't be found for 24 hours or so, however, it is
obviously an issue that requires an immediate technical solution.
While I encourage people to equip themselves with PowerFLARM, ELTs, or
anything else they think helps, I will suggest that we have a very odd
attitude towards safety here in the US. It's far too difficult to do
some things, like examining whether changes to the tow signals are
appropriate, making sure tow planes have working radios, or
encouraging CDs not to set tasks which result in gliders encountering
each other head-on at cruise speed. But, if there is a fancy safety
gadget to be bought, we all need to be with the program. That is the
American way.

Speaking as a pilot who has (hopefully, temporarily) grounded himself
due to concerns that real life has become too much of a distraction
from flying safely,
Marc

Marc

As you know I am in a curmudgeonly mood all the time.

I am all for addressing the other issues. They are areas I worry about
personally. I use written checklists, deliberately purchased gliders
with auto control hookup, I like to do BFRs and spring checkouts with
different instructors. I have a VHF radio that works well and I use it.
I choose where I fly and will not fly at some locations that are just
don't have a strong safety culture. Being a technology geek I am going
to speak up on the technology stuff and hope that experienced
instructors etc lead on the other stuff--nice to see UH and Tom's posts
recently.

And at a completely callous level if those other folks go kill
themselves elsewhere and not run into me in a thermal etc. at least I am
alive. Hopefully there is not too self denial of my own other safety
risks going on here.

Too many times have I been surprised by other gliders and GA aircraft
and that is when trying to keep a good lookout. Given that I am actually
surprised we have as few mid-air fatalities as we do. And statistics be
damned, after losing friends in midairs that PowerFLARM could likely
have helped avoid (and yes so could radio use etc.) its very difficult
not to think that these are pretty cost effective and justifiable. Of
course Flarm is not a replacement for the eyeball or an excuse to not
think about things like safe task setting etc.


Darryl

Marc wrote:
On Sep 11, 9:41 am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I think we have pretty good interest in PowerFLARM adoption in the
USA
soaring community now. We could have been a lot further along and
have
fewer dead pilots had we all, including the SSA, worked to more
actively
encourage FLARM to enter the USA market years ago.

Be aware, I'm in a curmudgeonly mood today:

Perhaps 4 or 5 pilots have died in the past decade in the US in
glider/
glider or glider/towplane accidents. During that same period, I
suspect 50 or 60 pilots have died from more mundane issues, like
collision with terrain, stall/spin, failure to connect the elevator,
etc.

As anyone who has been around the US soaring scene for a while knows,
when Joe Glider Pilot hits the rocks, fails to notice that the
spoilers are open on takeoff, or spins in the pattern, it was because
he was inadequately trained or should never have been a pilot in the
first place. When Famous Racing Pilot runs into another glider, or
crashes in trees and can't be found for 24 hours or so, however, it is
obviously an issue that requires an immediate technical solution.
While I encourage people to equip themselves with PowerFLARM, ELTs, or
anything else they think helps, I will suggest that we have a very odd
attitude towards safety here in the US. It's far too difficult to do
some things, like examining whether changes to the tow signals are
appropriate, making sure tow planes have working radios, or
encouraging CDs not to set tasks which result in gliders encountering
each other head-on at cruise speed. But, if there is a fancy safety
gadget to be bought, we all need to be with the program. That is the
American way.

Speaking as a pilot who has (hopefully, temporarily) grounded himself
due to concerns that real life has become too much of a distraction
from flying safely,
Marc

[quote=jcarlyle;782917]John F,

I understand your cloud street advice, but don't understand "G and R
tasks". Would you please elaborate?


I would think 'Goal and Return' aka Out and Return

Colin